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To read my comments here please search for my name in this page. I was basically repeating same set of questions pretty much throughout this discussion but did not receive a satisfactory answer from believers. No surprise there. Here it is on Amazon, if you want to read it there.


 


Initial post:
June 11, 2009 10:13 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Does anyone know where l can find further information on history of the bible?

Am especially interested in changes made to the bible removing references to reincarnation, apparently made it easier to control the masses.

Hope this doesn’t offend anyone on this community. Just curious.



Posted on
June 12, 2009 3:08 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Found the answer if anyone is interested – from science community as had put there in error, oops! Didn’t know there was a Christianity community.

Apparently a transcript from early Christian bible exists translated from scripts by a man named Nan Hamadi. Elaine Pagel discusses in her book The Gnostic Gospels. Sorry not seen her book yet, so don’t have the publisher or year as yet.

Reincarnation is in Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalen, Judas etc.etc. Therefore must also have been part of Jesus’s teachings if these teachings where then removed by early Christian authorities.



Posted on
June 12, 2009 3:20 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Sorry to disappoint, but reincarnation is NOT a Bible doctrine. The BIBLE tells us that man is appointed ONCE to die, and then comes the judgment.

One time thru is all we get.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:38 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Sorry l don’t agree with you Christine but that’s okay. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and spiritual beliefs.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:43 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:02 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:12 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:07 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Thanks lots of useful information there for me.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 7:20 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 7:30 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAUARA STANTON: Does anyone know where l can find further information on history of the bible?Am especially interested in changes made to the bible removing references to reincarnation, apparently made it easier to control the masses.Hope this doesn’t offend anyone on this community. Just curious.

LEE: The late Dr. F F Bruce’s The Canon of Scripture is exellent.

As for reincarnation, Christine is right in this case. Reincarnation was never in the Bible, being an Eastern, Asian teaching not taught in mainstream ancient Judaism, which is the faith that birthed Christianity. Jews and Christians believed that you die ONCE and then at the end face judgment.

As for the Nag Hammadi texts, these are a collection of 52 odd ancient religious texts discovered in 1947 in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. They were copied in the 4th-5th centuries by a Christian heretical group known as Gnostics.

Gnosticism was a 2nd-5th century heresey that basically taught that matter and the created world were created by an imposter god known as the Demiurge, who wanted to be equal to the high God Ialdabaoth. Many Gnostic sects identified this wicked Demiurge with the Hebrew God Yahweh of the Old Testament, hence many Gnostic sects were spiritual anti-Semites. Ialdabaoth or in some Gnostic texts Sophia, created souls which got trapped in human bodies, thus the Gnostcs’ goal was to escape the created world via secret gnosis, or knowledge, hence the sect’s name. In most Gnostic theology Jesus wasn’t God incarnate, but was a lesser, semi-divine spirit-guide who didn’t come in the flesh-his physical body was just an illusion, hence his death, burial and resurrection were just illusions. The spirit-guide Jesus imparted secret wisdomn to certain key apostles, who in turn passed it on to certain key initiates enlightened enough to handle it, regarding how to escape the space-time world of matter. As a result of their weird views, many Gnostic sects were down on women and sex, though some, believing the body was irrelevant, taught that it didn’t matter what you did with it, hence urged their followers to party and live it up. The a-historical, spirit-only Gnostic Jesus resembles a Greco-Roman philospher more than the very human (but at the same time God) Jewish Jesus, who affirmed the essential goodness of YHWH’s creation.

A few of the New Testament letters write against an early form of Gnosticism, such as I Corinthians, I Timothy, I and II John, Jude, and possibly Colossians. I and II John are clear that anyone who teaches that Jesus Christ didn’t have a physical body is an antichrist (II John 9). The Gospel of John is also possibly anti-Gnostic because John goes to great lengths to show how Jesus Christ was God in human form-the Logos, or Word of God, with skin on, something no Gnostic could handle.

The early fathers of the Church like the 2nd-century Irenaeus wrote against these Gnostics and their so-called gospels. The earliest Gnostic gospel wasn’t written until ca. 150 AD, long after the canonical New Testament texts were written. However there are a few fringe NT scholars out there who argue that the Gnostic gospels predate the canonical NT texts, but it should be stressed that this is the MINORITY VIEW. I must say that Elaine Pagels is not one of my favorite scholars because I think she mishandles the data. Go ahead and read her book (1979), but then read others that argue another interpretation. Might I recommend Dr. Darrell Bock’s The Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth Behind Alternative Christianities, and/or Dr. Timothy Paul Jones’ Conspiracies and the Cross, and Dr. Philip Jenkins’ Hidden Gospels: How The Search for Jesus Lost its Way. Also, the Nag Hammadi texts have been published, the most recent version being edited by Dr. Marvin Meyer.

It’s vey faddish nowadays to assert, like Elaine Pagels, Bart Erhman and a few others like the Jesus Seminar Fellows, that there were all these alternative Christianities floating around in the first, second and third centuries, and that there really was no one true version of Christianity until the church fathers or Constantine or whoever persecuted the Gnostics into non-existence and made orthodox Christianity the one true view. But again, this is the minority view among scholars, and for which there’s little evidence. The Gnostic sects died out of their own accord because they were anti-creation, often anti-sex, were exclusivist, dogmatic and extremely intolerant of divergent viewpoints. Basically, Gnosticism was too weird even for most pagan Greco-Romans. It managed to hold out until the Middle Ages as the Albigensians, or Cathars, in Southern France, who were dualists, believing in a good god who created spirit, and a bad god who created matter, were against marriage and sex, were vegetarian, etc. By as I said, Gnosticism was NEVER accepted by the early Church; the Bible condemns it in no uncertain terms, as did all of the early fathers. The only gospels ever regarded as canonical by the Church are the four by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

As for Origen, he didn’t teach reincarnation, he taught that our souls are preexistent, and get put into our bodies at birth; this IS NOT the same thing as teaching reincarnation. Origen, like the other church fathers, believed you die once and then face judgment.

Again, reincarnation was never taught in the Bible, either Old Testament or New Testament. Reincarnation is an Eastern Asian belief foreign to orthodox Judaism and Christianity.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 7:28 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Laura,Everyone IS entitled to believe what they want, but that doesn’t mean that what they believe is TRUE. :)I can believe I am a frito…but hey, my little minds conception is NOT the final say on what reality IS! God reserves that for Himself alone.

That is why we are to listen to what HE says on the subject, and not what the world tells us.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 7:55 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 7:59 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
When I ‘asked’ I was led to 2 passages in the bible. Those two being when Jesus was askd if John was Elijah, the other about the man who’d been blind since birth.

Also a book call ‘The Mystic Christ’ by Walther ????? 3rd.

In addition, Judiasm allows for reincarnation from some material in the bible too (though depending on interprettion the amount of times given might be more limited).

As for Origen, I’ve seen various takes on what he says to be honest. one being that his works just speak to previous existence of the soul and this doesn’t cover reincarnation. And I’ve seen the reverse.

Elaine Pagels materials I’d recommend, she’s well guided. Though a bit repetative in her books.

Anyway a good way to look at it is ‘Would a loving God give you only one chance to get it right?’, even humans do better than that. I’d assume (eveen not knowing what I do), how much more God would keep giving us chances till we get it right.

Edit – In talking with some jews they agree on reincarnation too. One might do a search on Judiasm and reincarnation.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 7:58 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
One should also point out that the Bible condemns the church……..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 10:36 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hi, Laura

I also, as a believer in Jesus, believe that there have been many scriptures that have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, eliminated, added, and changed in the Bible. I personally don’t recommend reading the Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, or Judas if you’re searching for Truth. These books have not yet been authenticated as coming from THE people we suppose they come from, and it’s still not proven that Jesus actually taught what they taught. I’d just consider those books as a reference to know what some people wrote about after Jesus’ death and resurrection. I’ve read a lot of that information, and I personally believe that those books are mainly based on personal opinion, and not actually teachings by Jesus. I do recommend the Book of Enoch, though it still has a problem with the reference made to angels, which in this case I don’t believe they meant the heavenly angels, but actual men whom acted as messengers for God. It explains a bit clearer the fall of Man, though it’s still not 100% accurate due to mistranslations.

I suggest that if you read anything about the Protestant Reformation or the beginnings of the Catholic Church (both had major influences in the changes made throughout the Bible) that you not choose to read the religiously-biased, church written version of their history, as you will only get their point of view. Try to find books written by actual non-religious historians, whom should have a more non-biased view. I won’t recommend any books. I’ll let you be guided by your own discernment and wisdom given to you from above.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 10:38 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
I also agree with Bryan in this assessment.

Blessings!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 10:44 AM PDT

Who says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov. 18, 2009 3:17 PM PST]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 10:47 AM PDT

Who says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov. 18, 2009 3:17 PM PST]
Posted on
June 12, 2009 11:53 AM PDT

Eirini says:
Lee,Very informative post. I would add that with all the furor about the recently found Gnostic Gospel of Judas and the rushed translation (from Coptic, which requires specialists to translate and many experts weren’t given access to the book before all the promotion and sales went on), Elaine Pagels and Karen King once again made the headlines with their interpretation. What didn’t make the headlines after the furor died down, (like a small correction notice placed in the back pages a year later) was that at a large scholarly conference Pagels and King were seriously taken to task for their complete misrepresentation of what the Gospel of Judas actually says. Pagels and King represented the Judas in their interpretation of the Gospel of Judas as a good person. They mistranslated the word demon referring to Judas as spirit at the highest level of heaven. They claimed Judas was being praised in the Gospel when in fact the text clearly states that he is being ridiculed, that he is evil for turning Jesus over to the evil Gnostic god. They made egregious errors and basically just shopped an interpretation they thought would sell books because it’s controversial and new. Big no no for any serious student or scholar. This is unfortunate because the average consumer can manage to read a 200 page book by Pagels, but would have greater difficulty going back and reading Patristics to understand what was going on. That would require a lot more time, money and effort, so the lie is easier. Also, the Gnostics had a hard time wrenching themselves from the field of philosophy. They were stuck in their world view. They couldn’t understand how the soul could be combined with a material body, because they saw the material world as evil. The Gospel of Thomas for instance contradicts the Gospels by telling people to NOT fast, give alms, pray in privacy, etc. The Gnostics don’t enter into the Kingdom by becoming like a child, but through being elite and knowledgeable. And, oops, the secret knowledge for the few and privileged? Hoping that their method of salvation will save you somehow because you’ll be smarter and in the know above all the simpletons and fools? It’s gone. So if you’re hoping to count on that for salvation, too bad. It’s a dead end and you won’t be enlightened, but rather more in the dark.

The Fathers of the Church knew which writings were Gnostic at first glance when they saw openings like the secret sayings of so and so of this and that and they weeded it out as they well should have. Gnosticism taken seriously is a doctrine of despair, because after all, we do have to live out our lives here in the material world as best we can and seeing everything material as evil is just not helpful. God made this creation and saw that it was GOOD, even though I sometimes have difficulty seeing that from my finite perspective. Bart Ehrman was a fundamentalist Christian who was taught that every single word of the Bible was a literal truth and there was no error in it because it was all inspired by God, there can be no discrepancy, with the human agency being just a conduit for the writings. Many Muslims are taught this about the Q’ran as well, and some Orthodox Jews. It’s really unrealistic to think this way. Fundamentalist Christians don’t have the conception of the Bible as the product of the church. They can’t look to the church because they have no church with history going back to the people who chose the Canon. He had no understanding of oral transmission, no understanding of the role of the church and the continuity of tradition in Christian life, he had no way to understand the role of the human element in the Bible. Just as Jesus was human and divine, so is the Bible. It is a cooperation of human and divine elements. The story of the sinful woman was a copyist add-on into John’s Gospel. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t inspired, but it came through the oral transmission in the church and was accepted by the majority, not by one single guy making snap decisions, but over time with most agreeing on the Canon. Inspiration has to exist beyond the words and point to the truth. If this were not so, we couldn’t read the Bible in any other language than the one in which it was written because there are discrepancies in translation. This is why many Muslims believe that the Q’ran can only be read in the original language. There were not a lot of major alterations to Scripture as Ehrman maintains, but errors were made because everything was laboriously copied by hand. When Mr. Ehrman discovered the complexity involved in understanding the Bible, he had a meltdown and went to the polar opposite extreme. He’s still an extremist, just a different variety now. It’s sad, because it appears something like the reaction of a spoiled child not getting his way, only couched in slick intellectual terms. Unfortunately he isn’t content to live out his disappointment quietly, but tries to drag as many as he can along with him. Well, people did make the Bible, because as St. John Chrysostom used to say, the Word of God in the Bible is God’s condescension to human beings to explain things in a way we can understand within our limited ability. The word condescension may sound a little jarring to the prideful, but if one can get past that and understand that God reveals Himself to us through love and kindness, much like an adult wouldn’t speak to a child in a terribly complex way, then the mind begins to clear because it isn’t looking through the blinders of cynicism and hatred, but begins looking with a degree of openness and love and desire for the Truth. Human language is limited in expression, but it can be used to point toward something else. The Bible can’t explain every last detail about who God is, and the Truth of God cannot be confined to the letters in a text and conceptual framework of human beings, but it can explain the way to salvation.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 11:56 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Very good post! I agree with you.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 12:01 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
SISYPHUS: Most incorrect, because Jews do hold to reincarnation, and that Jesus himself would have held to it. not to mention that it is not solely a Easter believe, but it actually a widely held believe by many people in the ancient world, like the Greeks and Romans and Druids and people like that. not solely a Eastern concept but a Western and Eastern concept LEE: Sisyphus, reincarnation was never/is not now a widespread belief in Judaism. In ancient Judaism it certainly was not believed. Find me one ancient Jewish sect, whether Pharisess, Sadducees, Zealots or Essenes, that believed in reincarnation. You can’t do it. That some later Medieval and modern Jews may have believed/believe in a kind of reincarnation should not be read back into the 2nd Temple Judaism of Jesus’ day. Josephus talks about bodily resurrection as a belief of the Pharisees, but says nothing about reincarnation.

There simply is no historical evidence that Jews in Jesus’ day believed in reincarnation. The very idea goes against what the Hebrew scriptures actually teach about the bodily resurrection of all YHWH’s faithful at the end of time, when his kingdom was inaugurated and Israel was restored.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 12:11 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 12:19 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hello Lee,You stated: Again, reincarnation was never taught in the Bible, either Old Testament or New Testament. Reincarnation is an Eastern Asian belief foreign to orthodox Judaism and Christianity.

Me: The Jews and Christians also had writings other than the Torah, the Gospels, and the epistles of the Apostles. Maybe they didn’t believe generally in reincarnation, but I’m sure that there were certain individuals within both Judaism and Christianity who did have that personal belief, but, of course, an individual belief would not have been recorded. It may not be in our current version of the Bible, but I do believe that references similar to a type of reincarnation and other beliefs that modern-day Christians refuse to believe were in the original biblical writings. I believe that the first two major Christian denominations are greatly to blame for certain truths being taken out or changed in the books that currently comprise our modern-day Bible. But, if we only stick to just one book, we won’t find out the answers to many of our questions. All answers cannot be contained in one book, especially of one of such small size as the current Bible. I wonder how many people will be able to accept authenticated evidence of further writings and epistles from the Apostles and disciples in the future when better technology is developed to find, translate and authenticate them. I believe that many will not believe them, just because they were not previously added to all the books we currently have in our present-day Bible.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 12:18 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
SISYPHUS: then why did Enoch and Elijah never die, if it is appointed for man to die once? if man is to die once, then what about Lazarus? he died, which he is suppose to do once, but does that mean that he did not die again? because that would mean, that if he did die again, that it is not appointed to people to die but once, but actually more then one time

LEE: Sisyphus, these exceptions don’t invalidate the rule. Normally people die once and then await the judgment and the bodily resurrection. But scripture records a few exceptions, in which people didn’t die but were taken directly by God. And of course scripture records a few people being raised from the dead, however these people lived out the rest of their lives, then died a natural death. If they were saved, they will be bodily resurrected with everybody else. So the existence of exceptions does not invalidate the rule.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 12:35 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 12:37 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ROSITA: Me: The Jews and Christians also had writings other than the Torah, the Gospels, and the epistles of the Apostles. Maybe they didn’t believe generally in reincarnation, but I’m sure that there were certain individuals within both Judaism and Christianity who did have that personal belief, but, of course, an individual belief would not have been recorded. It may not be in our current version of the Bible, but I do believe that references similar to a type of reincarnation and other beliefs that modern-day Christians refuse to believe were in the original biblical writings. I believe that the first two major Christian denominations are greatly to blame for certain truths being taken out or changed in the books that currently comprise our modern-day Bible. But, if we only stick to just one book, we won’t find out the answers to many of our questions. All answers cannot be contained in one book, especially of one of such small size as the current Bible. I wonder how many people will be able to accept authenticated evidence of further writings and epistles from the Apostles and disciples in the future when better technology is created to find, translate and authenticate them. I believe that many will not believe them, just because they were not previously added to all the books we currently have in our present-day Bible.

LEE: Rosita, our current vesion of the Bible is the exact same Bible used by Justin Martyr in the 2nd century AD. The early church had an essentially complete canon of the NT by 175 AD. They very carefully looked at each text that claimed inspiration, and only accepted those texts that:

a) Could be dated to the first century, and shown to have been authored by an apostle (Matthew or Jude) or a disciple of an apostle (Luke or Mark).

b) Were accepted as authoritative and used throughout the Church.

c) Taught the faith the Church already proclaimed orally.

The NT texts were all written before the end of the 1st century AD. There were no other texts claiming to be inspired until the early 2nd century AD (for example, the Didache or I Clement) yet these were rejected as canonical because they were not written by apostles in the 1st century AD.

This isn’t just my opinion, or something I googled off Wikipedia-this is established historical fact. If you want to read an excellent book on the subject, check out FF Bruce’s The Canon of Scripture. It examines the formation of both the Old and New Testament canons, and discusses which books were choisen and why, as well as which books were rejected and why.

Any belief in reincarnation held by Jews during the 1st century 2nd Temple Judaism of Jesus (I’m not convinced there was such a belief) was insignificant at best. Jesus’ theology was closely aligned with the Pharisees’ theology-though he differed with them on certain key points, chiefly his claim to be the Messiah and YHWH in human form-but in other respects his theology mirrored theirs, and they did not believe in any kind of reincarnation. The Pharisees believed in bodily resurrection, the Sadducees didn’t believe in any kind of life after death, and the Essenes might have believed in bodily resurrection or a spiritual resurrection. The Zealots espoused the Pharisees’ theology.

The early Christians took their cues from Jesus and his apostles, who were Jews-albeit Jews proclaiming the Messiah. Reincarnation was never one of their beliefs. They preached a bodily resurrection of all the saved.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 12:40 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 12:41 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Yes, I have read all of which you speak of. I got my bachelors degree in a very well known Christian college. Thanks, I appreciate your opinion.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 1:13 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
LEE: Sisyphus, these exceptions don’t invalidate the rule

No, thought that’s exactly what they did. Also the diatribe on gnosticism beautiful…..how many does that make for you? I think you should look into this obsession of yours. I see you posting this everywhere. Were you not allowed to see truth? Does that make you upset? Have your 3 gods we’ll have our one. Continue to pretend your fantasy is oh so logical. It managed to hold out until the Middle Ages as the Albigensians, or Cathars, in Southern France, who were dualists, believing in a good god who created spirit, and a bad god who created matter, were against marriage and sex, were vegetarian, etc.

Ummmmm. Dualists as opposed to you pagan dualists with yer sins evil dirty body 3 good gods and One back god and the darkness chasing you, always chasing you, creating a Literal schism, a literal split…Or not, though a bit off track now the Rosi’s maintained it just fine. And here she is again. You can’t kill it, not your church not your 3 Gods. It is LIVING. ALIVE, speaks to the hearts of men, speaks IN hearts of men, and isn’t limited do our dead books or YOUR dead book. Which were written in… Seriously?? We don’t care. This shouldn’t be that hard. Oral tradition say it with me. They could have been written yesterday and we wouldn’t care. A book is never Truth. Also we believe in the LIVING Christ, the ETERNAL CHRIST, Tis you and yours that believe in a dying christ and a DYING eternal God…what? Eternal but dies? So impotent it cannot save or clease with a wave of its hand, it has to …..in the normal PAGAN way DIE> Don’t look now but your eternal god has been stuck to a tree for centuries and there he goes rising again.



Posted on
June 12, 2009 1:13 PM PDT

Eirini says:
Hello Rosita,

You are probably already aware of this, and perhaps this is to what you are referring when you say that there are more books than are in the Canon, but for general note:There are what Protestants call the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha which are considered Canon by church Fathers.

The version of the Hebrew Bible used by the writers of the NT was the Septuagint, which was an earlier translation of the Hebrew for the Hellenized Jews because they no longer understood Hebrew. This is an earlier translation than the later Masoretic text used for the translation of Protestant Bibles.

I was surprised to learn that the Eastern Orthodox have the largest Canon of Books, and the Septuagint is used rather than the Masoretic text. It seems a lot of people in the Americas are not aware of this difference.

Lee, FF Bruce’s The Canon of Scripture looks like an interesting book. Does he actually argue for the use of the Orthodox Canon to be used by Protestants? It’s a little confusing from the reviews because they refer to his orthodox view, but it’s not clear if it’s Orthodox or, orthodox from an Evangelical view.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 1:23 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LauraLaura though mabey not taught to mainstream Christianity there are several references to REINCARNATION in the BIBLEboth in the OT and the NTYou wont find the word Reincarnation in the Bible however, undeniable scripture EXISTS First and easiest to UNDERSTAND from Jesus Himself Jn 8;58 I say unto you ,before Abraham WAS, I AM..Seems pretty clear At least JESUS Reincarnates no

Next speaking of LEVI Hebrews 7;9And as I may say so LEVI also,who recieves tithes, paid tithes in ABRAHAMfor he was yet in the LOINS of his Father when abraham met HIMA little more difficult but also to reincarnation..Next 2 TIMOTHY 1;3 I (Paul) thank GOD, whom I serve from my Forefathers…..seems pretty clear

Heres A good Christian ONE 1 PETER1;3 Blessed be the father of our Lord Jesus Christwho has BEGOTTEN US AGAIN, (Begotten is born into flesh)THIS is VERY CLEAR>>>>>Next 1COR 15;49 As WE have born the IMAGE of the Earthy, we shall also bear the IMAGE of the Heavenly

Something will live AGAIN no??And How about this THE CRUNCHER 1 COR 15;19IF for THIS LIFE ONLY we have hope in CHRIST yaada yaada

This is pretty much SELF EXPLANATORY,,,Laura this forum is the wrong place to find out about the BIBLE and REincarnation, Most well, I guess ALL CHURCH taught Christiansbelieve CHURCH DOCTRINE and REincarnation goes DIRECTLY against what they are taught by the CHURCH….I could give you many many more direct examples of RE incarnation in the Bible. There are many in the OT also

ALLFAARAA




Posted on
June 12, 2009 1:25 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
NO no Allfaaraa….those are not references to reincarnation at all.

Jesus Christ was God in the flesh…not reincarnated.

Where do you guys come up with this foolishness?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 1:31 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Thanks! Yes, I’m aware of that information, and I agree that many people in America are not aware that the Eastern Orthodox have the largest Canon of Books, and the Septuagint is used rather than the Masoretic text. I’m also sure that more verifiable and authenticated writings will be found in the future. FF Bruce also has a text book that’s used in most Christian colleges describing the Apostle Paul and his ministry. I read that book in college (The King’s College in New York) during one of my Bible courses between 1981-1983, so I can’t remember much about it, and I no longer have that text book. It’s still being sold and used.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 1:39 PM PDT

Who says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov. 18, 2009 3:16 PM PST]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 1:41 PM PDT

Who says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov. 18, 2009 3:16 PM PST]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 2:25 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Akhenaten, when studying Gnosticism, one has to distinguish, as you seem unable or unwilling to do, between, the ancient, historical group of heretical sects loosely defined as Gnostic, from their modern off-shoots. Modern neo-Gnosticism isn’t the same as ancient Gnosticism. So for scholarly purposes we have to stick to FACTS, not subjective FEELINGS. You can redefine ancient Gnosticisnm however you want, but if you want to discuss the subject academically you MUST restrict yourself to what is known about these groups from their writings and those of the church fathers. You don’t get to make it up as you go along.

This holds true for any ancient religion. You can no more equate/conflate modern rabbinical Judaism with ancient 2nd Temple Judaism, than you can ancient Gnostics with modern ones.

The ancient Gnostics were not thie group of tolerant, non-judgmental, smiley-happy people sitting around in a circle singing Kum-Ba-Ya you seem to think they were. They had specific, well-defined beliefs, just as Christians did. Fredericka Matthews-Green summarizes the ancient Gnostic view succinctly:Gnosticism was elitist; Christianity was egalitarian, preferring neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free. Finally Gnosticism was just too complicated. . . Full-blown science-fiction Gnosticism died under its own weight. . . .[Dr. Elaine] Pagels does not endorse this aspect of Gnosticism. But the Gnostics would not endorse her version either. They did not think of these egalitarian schemes as mythopoeic (which is how Neo-Gnostics describe them), but as factual. Your salvation depended on getting it right, and Gnostics argued with each other much as theologians do today. Some claimed that the body was so evil you had to give up sex; others said the body was so illusory that it didn’t matter what you did with it. A well-meaning post-modernist who murmured `You’re both right’ would be reviled for not grasping what’s at stake.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 2:30 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
EVLOGITOS: Lee, FF Bruce’s The Canon of Scripture looks like an interesting book. Does he actually argue for the use of the Orthodox Canon to be used by Protestants? It’s a little confusing from the reviews because they refer to his orthodox view, but it’s not clear if it’s Orthodox or, orthodox from an Evangelical view.

LEE: Bruce was Protestant. So it’s orthodox with a lower-case o. Bruce held to historic, Protestant Christian views. He discusses the apocrypha and how the GK Orthodox Apocrypha differs from the Western one. He also discusses the LXX and the Masoretic Text. Its a great book.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 2:37 PM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov. 21, 2009 8:29 AM PST]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 2:53 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Christine,

So you acknowledge that Jesus REincarnates ?

And the other examples you What DENY or dont quite understand?

If for this life’ ONLY seems quite clear

Christine the verses I quoted go Exactly to RE incarnation

Did you know that CIRCUMCISSION is INCARNATION??

Not the seal of circumcision made with hands But the Circumcision of the HEART in the SPIRIT<<I can supply the Verse, however what is the point when you cant understand the PROOF

Sincerly Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 2:56 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hi ALLFAARAA

Though I don’t believe that the scriptures you listed point towards reincarnation, I’d like you to read this, if you’d be so kind. This is concerning John the Baptist and Elijah. I’ll write a comment after each scripture. 1. (Matthew 11:13-14) – For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come. Jesus is asserting here that John had been Elijah. Reincarnation was NOT taught by the Jews, but some individuals DID believe in reincarnation, though their individual beliefs do not appear recorded in our present-day version of the Bible. I know some Jewish individuals did believe because some of my in-laws are of Jewish heritage and have had that belief since before Jesus was born. They have a personal record of it.
2. (John 1:19-21) – And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are you? 20And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, I am not the Christ. 21And they asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he *said, I am not. Are you the Prophet? And he answered, No. As you can see, John is being asked if he IS (currently) Elijah. He said he IS NOT. He probably had no recollection of having been Elijah. This time around he was a different prophet with a different mission, John. Also, John DID NOT baptize, so he’s wrongfully called the Baptist. The word baptism wasn’t used amongst the Jews. That is a relatively new term used by Christians. In order for a Jew to be allowed to speak publicly, he had to be immersed or cleansed in water by the priests (including the Pharisees). This was done to cleanse them of any offenses against God, and to receive approval from the priests to commence a public ministry. In order for Jesus (by Jewish law) to be able to speak publicly, he also had to go through this type of ritualistic cleansing. So, what more convenient than having his cousin, John, perform this immersion/cleansing? God had already told both John and Jesus that he, John, would be the one performing this ritual on Jesus. Remember, Jesus stated that he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. John’s reaction to Jesus was, you should be the one cleansing me! He knew Jesus’ mission on earth. John knew that he was only there to pave the way for his cousin, Jesus. Which us why he felt so humbled in being the one chosen for such task.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:03 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Stratford We all knew LAURA made A mistake with that NAN Hamadi stuff, But it seems YOU were the only ONE that decided to JUMP on HER!!~!How does one increase their knowledge base It was obvious her understanding of mainstream Christianity was limited

that is why she was asking

She even for a moment thought she was on the SCIENCE FORUM

We could all be a little nicer no?

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 3:09 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ALLFAARAA : LauraLaura though mabey not taught to mainstream Christianity there are several references to REINCARNATION in the BIBLEboth in the OT and the NTYou wont find the word Reincarnation in the Bible however, undeniable scripture EXISTS First and easiest to UNDERSTAND from Jesus Himself Jn 8;58 I say unto you ,before Abraham WAS, I AM..Seems pretty clear At least JESUS Reincarnates noNext speaking of LEVI Hebrews 7;9And as I may say so LEVI also,who recieves tithes, paid tithes in ABRAHAMfor he was yet in the LOINS of his Father when abraham met HIMA little more difficult but also to reincarnation..Next 2 TIMOTHY 1;3 I (Paul) thank GOD, whom I serve from my Forefathers…..seems pretty clearHeres A good Christian ONE 1 PETER1;3 Blessed be the father of our Lord Jesus Christwho has BEGOTTEN US AGAIN, (Begotten is born into flesh)THIS is VERY CLEAR>>>>>Next 1COR 15;49 As WE have born the IMAGE of the Earthy, we shall also bear the IMAGE of the HeavenlySomething will live AGAIN no??And How about this THE CRUNCHER 1 COR 15;19IF for THIS LIFE ONLY we have hope in CHRIST yaada yaadaThis is pretty much SELF EXPLANATORY,,,Laura this forum is the wrong place to find out about the BIBLE and REincarnation, Most well, I guess ALL CHURCH taught Christiansbelieve CHURCH DOCTRINE and REincarnation goes DIRECTLY against what they are taught by the CHURCH….I could give you many many more direct examples of RE incarnation in the Bible. There are many in the OT alsoALLFAARAA

LEE: Allfaaraa, I think you misunderstand these passages because you’re interpreting them literalkly, when they aren’t meant to be.

Firstly I AM was the way YHWH (God) revealed himself to Moses in Exodus 3. Thus when Jesus says he is I AM in John 8:58, he was claiming to be God, as verse 59 makes clear:At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

They stoned him for blasphemy, because he claimed to BE God.

As for the Hebrews reference to Levi, Levi, was the great-grandson of Abraham The Jewish priests descended from Levi. The Hebrews were required to tithe to the priests. But Melchizedek was both priest and king and his authority superceded Abaraham’s and by extension Levi’s. Hence this verse is saying that Levi paid a tithe to the earlier priest-king Melchizedek, thus signifying that Melchizedek’s authority ultimately predated and superceded Levi’s. Levi only paid this tithe figuratively though, because his father, Abaraham’s son Jacob, wasn’t born yet, but was still in Abraham’s loins. So Levi paid a tithe to Melchizedek figuratively through his great-grandfather Abraham. The point of this section of Hebrews is that Jesus is descdended from Melchizedek, not Levi, thus Jesus’ priesthood is higher and better than that of the Levitical priesthood of ancient Judaism, since Levi figuratively paid tithes to Melchizedek through his great-grandfather Abraham. As for the I Peter reference begotten refers to a person’s being saved by Christ. When Christians are saved we are begotten or born again, to use a more modern phrase. It’s where Evangelical Christians get the phrase born-again Christian. It has nothing to do with reincarnation. The Nicene Creed affirms that Christ, the Logos made flesh, was begotten not made, which refers to his eternal preexistence, not his earthly birth through Mary.

The I Corinthians 15 passage is in the chapter where Paul is assuring the Corinthians that the resurrection has not occurred yet but will definitely happen in the future. The Christian belief is that Christ will raise all the saved Christians from the dead and they will live again. This will only happen ONCE, at the end. Believers will be bodily resurrected from the dead to live in the new heavens on the new earth. Just as Jesus was bodily resurrected, so will our resurrection bodies be exactly like his. So Paul is saying that if there really is no life after death, no bodily resurrection, Christians are sad for believing it. So again, the New Testament doesn’t reference reincarnation. Hebrews 9:27-28 leaves no room for doubt:Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:07 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
StatfordFirenze

Yes your right of course, don’t know enough information about the bible – but do tend to agree with Buddist, Huindu, and especially Taoism, as l know a lot about these. Taoism holds a special influences in my life at the moment. But hey ho it’s a free world and all that jazz. Not had time to look this information up as yet re Nag Hammadi! Do tend to turn things round to fit in with my own belief system …but then don’t we all?? Laura



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:10 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Brilliant answer there Alfaara. (No offence to Christine intended.)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:18 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 3:29 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hi, ALFAARA,I don’t think that the word reincarnates applies to Jesus. Here’s a definition I just found on reincarnation -Reincarnation, literally to be made flesh again, is a doctrine or metaphysical belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only human beings) survives death to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the spirit or soul, the higher or true self, divine spark, or I. According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world, but some part of the self remains constant throughout the successive lives.

It states here that the reincarnated person is born in a new body and has a new personality. Jesus did not return to a new body. He returned to the same body he had, with all the scars. He also did not have a new personality. He had the same personality that he had before he died. Reincarnation suggests that once a person dies, they return in a future date to a new body (and born from different parents), and they have a different personality than the one they had in their previous life due to the different environment that they grow up in. Jesus returned to the same body three days later. His body must have begun decomposing and rigor mortis must’ve set in. God must’ve somehow, in His infinite scientific knowledge, reversed the decomposition process in order for Jesus to return to his body, and he would probably still have felt pain upon returning to his reconstructed body (which is not recorded in the Bible, but is a medical fact).

Anyway, if Jesus is God, as believers believe him to be, why would he need to reincarnate? Some believers in reincarnation suggest that it exists because some have not learn the lesson they were supposed to have learned during that lifetime, and return to another lifetime to try to get it right that time around. Would Jesus need to reincarnate to get it right because he didn’t the first time? I don’t think so.

Edited:

Also, some believers in reincarnation suggest that some people may return to a new life because they were highly spiritual (or spiritually mature) in a past life, and are once again needed in a future life to impart their wisdom and do good once more for humanity’s sake. If this is so, I believe that this is what happened to John, the Baptist. He was once, as Jesus stated, the prophet Elijah, and was needed once more to return as John, the Baptist, to be the forerunner of Jesus.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 3:20 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
not subjective FEELINGS

Ummm…yeah well seeing as how it was and always will be about subjective feelings oh EXPERIENCE what is physically felt, not emotion…just personal experience. That will be hard. I have given you facts. I don’t view myself a knowing-ism-er so I know nothing about Gnostic-ism It is what it is. The Gentiles screwed it up made it backwards, flipped everything around. This goes back to ME, the historical me Nefer-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re, I will speak from before to Christ, maybe through James the Just even. But I want nothing of your western dualized Idea of what gnosis is. It IS NOT a doctrine or dogma. It’s between the individual and God, you know that I have told you that. The jews had it. Ophites. Before Jesus. Jesus had it, unless you want to claim the son did NOT have personal experiential relationship with the ONE. Unlike most christians who hallucinate their relationship. Who believe we’re told we are to have one so we must, we confuse saved and born again, we worship a dying eternal god and so on. No such thing as neo gnostic of course if it is new it would be false but if it was NOW, it has ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS hold true. Has the breathe of God or the Spirit of man changed?

I’ve posted this before and I’ll do it again.

Ophite-Jewish or early-Gnostic This, early on, is comparable to Eastern Doctrines: See essay Kaballa – Dark Tradition for fuller explanation.

Ophites are of the Hebrew peoples originally and go back to the Seiri cults that Moses railed against: Moses called them Obites – hence the term obic. Start with the Kaballistic Tree. The Sephiroth are equated with the Tantrik Arupa (Formless Beings), Hindu Asura, or Hellenic Archons ( Ancient Ones). In this system there is a Primogenitor – it is male/female. It was sometimes referred to as merely Thelema (Will). Next there is Binah or Sophia also called Agape (Love), who is the offspring of Primogenitor alone. Next Hochmah also called Logos (later Christos) is the Son born from Primogenitor and Mother. But then the Mother mingles/merges with the Son to emanate the other seven Sephiroth or Archons (In the Tantrik system there are FIVE Asuras and SEVEN Devas, that would be the Five Dharmas [truths] and Rupa [Forms]. The Bahu or Demiurge or Prana may or may not be believed to have spawned forth Sophia Achamoth (comparable to Ophioneus) (this depends on how early or late the Gnosticism is). In later Gnosticism of NON-Jews, this became dualized where Jehova was the father and Demiurge or Ilda Baoth (Ialdabaoth) was the Devil that cursed man to have flesh; or vice versa: Jehova was the Devil against creation of LIFE and the Demiurge was the True God that gave all fleshly things LIFE. Many later cults sprang from these amongst the Gentiles who dualized all of it. The Sephiroth, manifested as Elohim IN the world, were called, in the Hellenic language, Aeons (ancient but existing in Time, not outside of time as the Archons). In Tantra these are Rupa (formed), in Hinduism they are the Devas. Again, in later Gnostic religions amongst Gentiles, Aeons and Archons got switched around. It is interesting to note that the Aryan Persians also switched the Asuras and the Devas so that Asuras became their Ahura Mazda and all the Devas were demonized as children of Ahriman, such as Aeshma Devi (the Hebrew Ashmodai – Asmodeus)! These formless Arupa or Asura were also later believed by some (more religious types) to be a race of beings far more advanced than our own who live beyond or outside of our World or Cosmos. It is mythology about these Ideas that have come down through the Christian times, with much filtering and distortion, as gods, devils, angels, demons, djinn, afreet, and so on. Then they were perceived as beings that either possessed cosmic power and wisdom compared to ourselves, or had powers comparable to the Greek pantheon, and who often vied with each other (in later Gnostic thought amongst Gentiles). At first they were thought of as supernatural; even later Gnostic thought perceived them as not really supernatural per se, but still more advanced than mere man, and even later, smarter thinkers perceived them as elemental forces and tried to think of them in terms of science. Remember, this was amongst the Gentiles who turned this all into Gnostic-ISM having totally forgotten the concept of GNOSIS! Saying Gnosticism is like saying Knowingism.

It was later believed that there were two ways to achieve Gnosis. One was through meditation where the mind is silenced, no thoughts occur (like in some Yogas) until only a single object of concentration remains where you try to focus that through the Third eye. This deteriorated into the most insane and rigid forms of asceticism, where cult members would even murder babies born to them because to make more flesh was considered evil! The other idea to get Gnosis was in a kind of Dionysian experience where the mind is raised to a very high pitch of excitement while focus on an idea is fixed or maintained. And if you know ANY history, you can see that these deteriorated into the most twisted, perverted forms of sexuality possible to conceive of. (Odd how these things managed to constantly deteriorate in the Western World where dualist schizoids abound! Well, actually it’s NOT odd at all…)But back to the normal methods of attaining Gnosis: There is a push/pull effect on the kundalini flow that might be felt. The eye-chakra and heart-chakra get merged and one KNOWS. I will add: Modern neurology would state that this is the ONLY way a person even has logic – to have feeling/thinking centers of the bbrain merged (you don’t FEEL this in the brain, but it IS happening in the brain). Another word for Gnosis in Taoism is Clarity. This doesn’t mean you know what the next lottery numbers are going to be. It means you WILL be capable of LOGIC and KNOWING regarding things of the physical world around you, and knowledge about yourself.

And IT goes back even further it was from the beginning when the Dark brought forth the light. God is not the light but birthed the light. We are and have always been that light. Your savior, your roadmap back to the creator has always been within….now I’ll read the rest of your post.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:44 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HI ROSITAI just read your post, always like your stuff whether I feel you are correct or incorrect,you always express your opinion in a very Christian matter so to speak, Wisdom tempered with LOVE Now If you read my post carefully, you would have seen that this TIME I left the JOHN/ELIJAH refference out,Why? even though I feel this is A valid example of Reincarnation there are verses which contradict verses AS YOUpresented, So who can prove their case??

Of course Babtisim isnt used by the JEWS it is one of those famous NT words such as JEW, CHURCH,Babtism, yaadayaadaessentially at the HIGHEST level of Spiritual understandingBABTISM and CIRCUMCISSION are the Same Thing..You are understanding Babtisim as Immersion arent YOU? Not some Bathing Tradition

Wait I went back top your post I see you mention Immersion

Israel had many traditions most to the cleaning and preparing of the FLESH so that GOD could live IN THEM

and WALK IN THEM….Yom KIPPUR the day of Attonement was for cleansing/removing of SINS if not mistaken..Rosita I try and Speak not in words which mans wisdom teaches (aka the CHURCH) but which the HOLY SPIRIT teaches

comparing Spiritual things with Spirtual God is Spirit,,, HIS words are SPIRIT

The TRUTH of the BIBLE is so far over the ‘Head of Mainstream Christanity it gets comical!!

When the Literal understanding is in doubt, they claim METAPHOR, yet cannot explain the Metaphor..They attempt to understand the Bible with/through Reason, yet there is no REASONABLE interpretation of Scripture

ask any Aethiest….. Try this ON….All ISRAEL Reincarnated, none of them had EVER Died so to speak, JESUS was the FIRST of ISRAEL to actually

GIVE UP HIS SPIRIT, except mabey ELIJAH, search the OT and NT JESUS gave up his SPIRIT to GOD once for ‘ALL’

nO ONE ELSE hAD ever done that , It was in OVERCOMMING DEATH that JESUS brought LIFE to the WORLD

Except a GRAIN of WHEAT fall into the ground and DIE yaada yaada

Rosita I am getting carried away sorry, back to Reincarnation

PAUL SAYs
1COR 15;19

If in THIS LIFE ONLY we have hope in CHRIST,,,,,,,,,,,,,,How can you Rationalize that Away it is straight Reincarnation

AND JESUS says Before Abraham was I AM, How and WHY the SPIRIT/SOUL/Holy Spirit whatever you want to call it was….I dont think most Christians understand REincarnation, Your Spirit(PSYCHE) in Greek or concious mind/ego does not

REincarnate, it is the SOUL which is ETERNAL which may or may not RE incarnate, depending But examine the evidence I presented you, remove BIAS and If you would PLEASE either show me where I am wrong

by interpreting the Scripture I presented or Consider the possibility or not

Thanks Rosita

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 3:49 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 4:40 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
No, you must NOT look at this academically. You look through intellect and immediately you lose two thirds of the equation, you lose what can only be told through metaphor and you lose what can only be gained through an inner sight. And you fall. You think a severed schizophrenic mind can make up for what is lost? You are divided. This is truth, this has always been truth. Not connected with God not even yourself, there is even no Satan in this equation. You are in a constant battle with your mind. Forget satan forget God, forget it all while the mind the ego, the identity is fractured in such a way. You are twenty different people and these poseurs all see God? Elitist, in a way yes. Effort is necessary, huge effort and the strength to surrender completely. This is not for everyone. THEY knew that. So, if you’re gonna half azz it, if you are not gonna question, if you don’t want to look deeper, you’re shunned or forgotten. Do not cast pearls before swine YA know? So beautiful an idea a concept, I wish we would have thought of it. Wait….You quoted a Christian author, I quote someone who hates ME and YOU…I wonder which is less biased. Now the body wasn’t EVIL, you know that! That is your argument? That is the twist you wanna put on it? The body is a prison…..similar to the inherently sinful icky body idea. Only we KNOW what sin really is, don’t try to scare people and don’t try to make it something its NOT. You wanna pretend your beliefs are so much more logical that’s fine, have a blast but speak correctly, else you lie and we all KNOW that is sin. Now the body IS a prison yes, we say that we believe this but it HAS to be this way. We know this as well, this is where we are supposed to be OBVIOUSLY, I mean we’re HERE correct? In the beginning none of this was dualized, not a thing, body a prison, but that has nothing to do with evil, it just IS. We wanna go home, you wanna go home. But we hate this life, not you? Be in the world but not OF it. Even God himself hated his creation? Myth used to convey truth…simple concept. Truth so great so incredible, that it can only be experienced not spoken, NEVER conveyed in the literal, intellectual sense. I understand that because Jesus never spoke in parables, never in story and never in metaphor, you see my stance as idiotic, unintelligent, not MIND-FULL. We will never see eye to eye. You want to intellectualize everything INCLUDING God, want to dissect it, rape it of it’s divinity, I just want to be absorbed by it. Strangely enough in all my nonsense, I am still speaking higher than you. BUT, since you have a completely intellectual grasp of the essence of god, and all things created by him maybe you will be the first to tell me PLAINLY what is the essence of LOVE (only speak of the higher when I say Love), and what a flower smells like, also what it feels like to orgasm.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:03 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEE

Youre obviously Highly Educated and write well.

Youre iinterpretations are mabey CHURCH Bias? Begotten is BORN into FLESH, it has nothing to do with being saved by CHRIST

When as Christ is HIS only BEGOTTEN SON how does this go to your point of Christ saving CHRIST???? that doesnt work

STRONGS #1080 Begotten ,Gennao To REGENERATE, BRING FORTH BE BORN

The verse says Begotten US AGAIN, that means REGENERATED again, BRING FORTH AGAIN, aND EVEN be born again

THIS IS PURE Re incarnation Lee I would dispute of who or what is dead? You are preaching CHURCH taught Doctrine,

Hebrews 9;27 28 As it is appointed unto MEN once to DIE, Lee this doesnt work!!

Man DIES the SOUL doesnt Man doesnt REINCARNATE the SOUL REINCARNATES , your SPIRIT, Psyche in GREEK which is

your concious mind does NOT REINCARNATE

When you die your SOUL ,,wait, thats too complicated….Man the FLESH will die once, your body goes only ONE ROUND you SOUL goes many

LEE I am not trying to convince you of REincarnation I understand it goes against what you are taught and believe IN

and thats OK

But I assure YOU there are those of US who do Reincarnate and understand Reincarnation and are Christian..Thanks LEE

Allfaaraa



Posted on
June 12, 2009 4:10 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Oh boy…trust me…no true Christian believes in reincarnation. It is NOT a biblically supportable concept at all. Fringe religious types may buy it, but those who read and study their Bibles won’t get caught up in this foolishness.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:10 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Rosita just read this post about reincarnation i AM A SLOW TYPER,tHIS DEFINITION ON Reincarnation did you grasp this from one of my EARLIER NEW AGE BOOKS,I wrote a couple in MY LAST LIFETIME before I became a Gnostick Christian LOL

Im sorry I am Laughing You are GREAT but most Christians just dont have any kinda Metaphyscial understanding

JESUS or the SPIRIT, INCARNATED from the Beginning, Israel was the BLOODLINE of that SPIRIT

Thanks Rosita

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:14 PM PDT

FashionSense says:
Laura Stanton

While you may have your own personal beliefs please do not say that the Bible had reincarnation scriptures taken out when this is not true. The Bible has never stated things about a belief in reincarnation. Actually there is a scripture which says, It is appointed once for man to die. This explicitly tells us that a person has only one life.



Posted on
June 12, 2009 4:15 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
I wrote a couple in MY LAST LIFETIME before I became a Gnostick Christian LOL

Huh? Really? I never knew. I’m a non-stic christian, nice to meet you.



Posted on
June 12, 2009 4:15 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Alfaarraa wrote a couple of books in her last lifetime.

Oy vey.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 4:21 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hello, Allfaaraa,I presented my opinions to you (and for anyone else who may care) with definitions of what some people believe. I appreciate your opinion, also. But, I keep believing that we do not know the WHOLE truth on every subject while we are on earth. We will know the complete Truth once we are in heaven. Just as Paul stated in 1st Corinthias, 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So, for now, I consider MOST teachings as personal opinions until I am finally home. There are beliefs that are not necessary for salvation. I don’t believe in fighting over the minutia. I present my OPINION. I don’t present it as fact, and I always prove this by saying, I believe, I think, or it’s my opinion. I respect everyone’s opinion, unless they are trying to push their views upon me, and become mean and angry because I don’t believe like they do. When they do so, I believe they no longer deserve my respect, as respect is something to be earned, not forced upon.

Again, I do respect your opinion, and the fact that you are posting it here. There may be something in what you state that may cause me to say, hey, I never thought about it in THAT context before, and will cause me to seek more knowledge about that particular subject.

Blessings and peace! :)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:25 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Christine is a graceless grace monster….Ocho Cinco.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:32 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
AKH Great POST You echo my words or vice versa REASON INTELLECT does not work with Scripture!

As to the rest of your post BRAVO!

The OTHER EGYPTIAN

From a past life anyway! NO! im not muslim!!

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:34 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
CHRISTINE

Im a HE, in this LIFE anyway LOLOL

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:36 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
ROSITA

As always you are GRACIOUS Bless YOU

But YOU still Reincarnate LOL

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:40 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
I didn’t suspect you were muslim, or anything for that matter, just not sure.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 4:47 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hey, I personally BELIEVE in reincarnation!!! But, not that Jesus reincarnated. You know what other, public Christian personality believes in reincarnation also? Reba McEntire!!! I know that many believers will claim that she’s NOT a Christian for having that belief, but that’s their opinion.

Look at this bit, and to read the whole thing, you can go to http://www.theboot.com/2008/10/16/reba-mcentire-reincarnated/

Although Reba McEntire fears that fellow Christians might criticize her for it, the singer says she believe she’s been reincarnated.

I believe I’ve gone both ways — that I have been here before as a man, the 53-year-old (in this life, anyway) tells the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. I believe I have spent time with my son Shelby before. I believe I have spent time with other people in my life before. Who knows? Maybe I’m part Buddhist.

As for reconciling her Christian faith with her belief in reincarnation, McEntire says, I’m sorry, but this is how I live my life, this is what I believe.

Thanks, Allfaaraa!!!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 4:44 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Ummm…thanks. I was all over the place as usual. Non-sensical and such. The OTHER EGYPTIAN? Hmmm…I would like to hear about this feller, I added you as a friend. I’m okay with rejection so you don’t have to add me.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 7:46 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:12 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 8:17 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Allfaaraa, I’m not teaching church doctrine, I’m teaching Bible doctrine. I’m letting the context of the texts you quoted tell me how they should be interpreted. You can’t rip one sentence out of a whole chapter and then use that sentence, interpreted literally, in stand-alone fashion to prove a preconceived idea. That and I’m basing my views on church history. There was simply no time in the history of the church where reincarnation was taught. The very concept goes against the fundamental beliefs of Jews and Christians about the afterlife.

When the NT uses the GK word psyche for soul, what it means is this:

1) breath

a) the breath of life

1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animals

b) of men

b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

The NT authors, esp. Paul, think and write in Hebrew terms (albeit filtered through their experience of Christ’s bodily resurrection), not Greek terms. Hebrews made no distinction between body/mins/spirit. Remove any one of these and you no longer have a whole healthy human being. Survival of the soul after the body dies is a Platonic GK idea, not a Jewish-Christian one. The NT teaches the redemption of the WHOLE person, as Paul makes clear in I Corinthians 15, and Romans 8. When Paul contrasys physical and spiritual bodies in I Corinthians 15, he uses the GK word psychikos usually translated physical. However his point is that our present fallen, mortal bodies are powered, or animated by the psyche or the mortal human breath of life, whereas our resurrection bodies, our pneumatikos bodies, our spiritual bodies, will also be physical, though animated, not by our mortal breath of life, but totally by God’s Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11; 18-23 says:And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. . . .

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul can’t be any plainer here that God intends to save ALL of creation, including our human bodies. This jives perfectly with OT Hebrew theology. The idea that only our disembodied souls survive death is Gnosticism, not Jewish or Christian.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 8:32 PM PDT

Celsus says:
Laura

The following are what I consider to be the most compelling evidence of reincarnation in the Bible:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (Indicating Reincarnation – John the Baptist was Elijah.)

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. (Elias reincarnated as John the Baptist.)

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. (Reincarnation again indicated)

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed’….Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Reincarnation again indicated)

Here is the real clincher:
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, `Master, who committed sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind’?
This is a clear reference to reincarnation since the man in question could only have sinned in a previous life in order for it to affect his birth.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 8:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 8:36 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Akhenaten, I’m not interested in what modern Gnostics THINK ancient Gnostics believed, but what ancient Gnostics REALLY believed, as this is understood by scholars. I wouldn’t confuse modern Gnosticism with ancient Gnosticism any more than I’d confuse ancient historic Celtic reiligious beliefs with modern, reinterpreted Wiccan beliefs. The two are complately different.

The Jesus of the canonical gospels is clearly rooted in 1st century, 2nd Temple Palestinian Judaism, and interacts with real historical people (John the Baptist, Caiphas, Pontius Pilate, etc.), in real historical locations (Nazareth, Capernaaum, Jerusalem, Caesrea, etc.), and affirms the essential goodness of the Jewish God YHWH’s creation. Jesus was bodily resurrected after his crucifixion. Whereas the Gnostic Jesus is NOT grounded in real history, and does NOT interact with real, historical people in real, historical places; and of course many Gnostics were spiritual anti-Semites. And, significantly, the Gnostic Jesus’ answer to sin is to argue that matter is the real problem, and souls being trapped in physical bodies, with the answer being to free the soul from its bodily prison and flee from the world, whereas the Christian Jesus’ answer to sin is to tackle it head on, and defeat it, though sacrificing himself as an atonement for that sin, to allow YHWH to resurrect him, and to offer all who follow him bodily life again after bodily death in a perfectly restored world.

Give me THIS Jesus, the REAL, Jewish Jesus, over the mythical, fairy-tale, subjective GK-Gnostic Jesus who says the only answer is to escape the world, any day!

You may not like this interpretation of ancient Gnosticism, but that’s not my problem: the original Gnostics probably wouldn’t like yours much, either. My interpretation is based upon what scholars KNOW the ancient Gnostics ACTUALLY BELIEVED, rather than a modern, romantic, reinterpretation.

Apparently ancient Gnosticism was too biazarre even for most pagan Greeks and Romans, as it gradually died out.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 8:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 8:46 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Beside the pearls before swine, there’s the parable of the farmer and the treasure……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 8:49 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
In other words a get out of jail free card because you think you’re totally incapable of doing on your own, so sacrificing someone else works for you.

Shows little faith in God or your ‘self’.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 8:54 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 12, 2009 8:58 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
CELSUS: Laura

The following are what I consider to be the most compelling evidence of reincarnation in the Bible:Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (Indicating Reincarnation – John the Baptist was Elijah.)

LEE: This was metaphorical. No one REALLY understood John the Baptist to be Elijah reincarnated. Where do you guys get this stuff? You hafta read the Bible like the ancient Jews and Christians did, not like modern New-Agers who don’t have a clue.

CELSUS: Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. (Elias reincarnated as John the Baptist.)

LEE: Again, metaphorical. Elijah was what is called a type. A type is defined as: An [Old Testament] biblical person, thing, action, event, ceremony, structure, furniture, number, etc. that prefigures an `antitype’ of the same in the New Testament. Merriam-Webster’s dictionary provides this simple definition: a person or thing (as in the Old Testament) believed to foreshadow another (as in the New Testament).

CELSUS: Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. (Reincarnation again indicated)

LEE: See the above.

CELSUS: Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed’….Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Reincarnation again indicated)

LEE: See the above.

CELSUS: Here is the real clincher: John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, `Master, who committed sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind’? This is a clear reference to reincarnation since the man in question could only have sinned in a previous life in order for it to affect his birth.

LEE: Because of interpreting passages like Jeremiah 32:18 literally, many Jews believed that people suffered because of the sins of their parents:

You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the fathers’ sins into the laps of their children after them.

So no reference to reincarnation is warranted from the context of John 9. These people wanted to know whether Jesusw interpreted passages like Jeremiah 32:18 literally, or whether Jesus instead believed that God caused people to be sick as punishment for their own sins. But notice how Jesus answers them: Neither this man nor his parents sinned, said Jesus, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. Jesus says nobody sinned (in this life, let alone some past life) to cause this man to suffer. As usual Celsus, you’re ripping sentences out of paragraphs of chapters in the Bible, ignoring their specific contexts, and trying to prove a preconceived point. Do you read/interpret the newspaper this way?

Pax.Lee.



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June 12, 2009 9:17 PM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 12, 2009 9:19 PM PDT

Who says:
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June 12, 2009 10:17 PM PDT
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Celsus says:
Lee

I don’t have any strong views on this issue, nor am I trying to prove anything. The initial poster raised the question of reincarnation in the Bible and I supplied some passages along those lines. I am not inclined to argue the issue with you, nor does it appear that the initial poster intended the thread to become a debate on reincarnation.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 12, 2009 10:20 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
The Jesus of the canonical gospels is clearly rooted in 1st century, 2nd Temple Palestinian Judaism, and interacts with real historical people (John the Baptist, Caiphas, Pontius Pilate, etc.), in real historical locations (Nazareth, Capernaaum, Jerusalem, Caesrea, etc.), and affirms the essential goodness of the Jewish God YHWH’s creationYou’ve repeated this many times and Jews actual real live Jews have refuted this. Give me THIS Jesus, the REAL, Jewish Jesus, over the mythical, fairy-tale, subjective GK-Gnostic Jesus who says the only answer is to escape the world, any day!You didn’t respond to my questions/challenges so I’m gonna consider this a bs statement. Apparently ancient Gnosticism was too biazarre even for most pagan Greeks and Romans, as it gradually died out.

Has it? How do you know what it looks like to claim it was ever dead Logical question. Right. You’re all about that. You may not like this interpretation of ancient Gnosticism, but that’s not my problem: the original Gnostics probably wouldn’t like yours much, either.

You Don’t know what mine isn’t. You know I believe in one god, and you know I like them think the body a prison. You don’t know what that means to me and you nor your scholars know what it meant to them. Apparently ancient GnosticismAgain no such thing and you know this. At least the scholars you like to parrot do. Many branches and such. Kinda almost similar to the many christianities ya got floating around. And you know the words of the master, cause they were oh so intellectually based? This whole intellectual god is a joke. And you conceive the unconceivable unmoved mover. Is-nes and Being and so on and so forth? Try again. Subjective Yes how dare I experience life. How dare I be myself! Correct? I should be more like you? Live vicariously through others logic others quotes live as the dead and Speak of a dead God while the ETERNALLY Living One Stands before me? Try again. I once met a man incapable of love, he could not feel it and prevented himself from such because he could not define it, could not grasp could not confine, and not dissect it…the essence was lost on him, I pitied him as much as I pity you now. Don’t be that man. A worthless endeavor. He was discarded, I had to murder that man. Christ called you to be yourself, God made you to be an individual, a part of the whole; you have forgotten these parts; you’ve made a suit of others ideas and concepts…this is what you wear? You’ve been given the opportunity to be as to the Son of God and who are you? A schism? That is all? Over thinking over analyzing separates the body from the mind Use you mind, stop letting it use you, do not let it convince you of your superiority because you have let others do research for you and speak for you. Do not be so convinced of your grandeur when you refuse to use your own tongue. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.Paul spoke against the intellect, your treasured monkey mind…..Become one and allow wisdom to enter. Then instead of looking down on those of us who LIVE and our subjective knowledge instead of poo pooing our EXPERIENCE, you can get in the game. Still time for you to become. Still time to shed the wires and chips, the machinery, still time to REALLY FEEL (physical) I know the same as the ancients God cannot stop touching, moving through man….there is no disconnect. We just feel it while, the preta, the klippoths, thanatos (the opposite of Zoos in the physical sense, and the opposite of Eros in the higher or spiritual sense. Thanatos does not mean dead as in dead/buried. It means dead yet walking around as if alive. They are at war with WHAT IS. At war with Nature and their own Natures.

Lazarus, Come out of your tomb.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 12:44 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Celsus + Lee. I did only asked my initial question to recieve more information on Christianity and it’s relationship with reincarnation, so that l could check this information out for myself. Thank you for the people who have suppied references for me to check out.

I would never tell anyone what they should believe or not as this is a very personal issue and apparently the hardest thing for people to change – think that’s from Andrew Newberg a American neuroscientist. Think it’s important to challenge our own beliefs by looking at others viewpoints and finding connections or variations or even issues we don’t like at all. I am just examining my own faith system which is a mix up of many- and only because this works for me. Am now going to bow out of this community as l recieved all that l required thank you. One of the many definitions of spirituality in Aru Narayanasamy’s book (2006) Spiritual Care and Transcultural Care Research -That which gives meaning, purpose, hope and value to people’s lives. This is part of a wider concept which may include but is not defined by religious faith and culture.(Swinton, (2002)A benevolent God would not punnish us for our mistakes and would offer as many chances as we require. Hence my liking for reincarnation theories as it appears to make much more sense to me.



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June 13, 2009 1:54 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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June 13, 2009 5:23 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 5:33 AM PDT

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June 13, 2009 7:26 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>You go to great lengths to tear down Lee’s post when your responses indicate inferior scholarship and a lack of commitment to serious inquiry.

Depends, Ahkhenaton’s scholarship is aimed at the primary source, not second and third hand accounts and guesses.

So while Lee’s scholarship is acceptable (note only acceptable), it doesn’t go to the source. It only accepts who and what he thinks is correct from secondary and lesser sources.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:15 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Stratford

I did not indicate or say anything about your POST, I am pretty much a straight shooter I say what I feel,

The only thing I said I said to you. I did not say I agree with the poster Do you read anybodys post but YOUR own?

Stratford we all knew Laura had made an error, BUT she semed sincere in an effort to seek knowledge, AND(how bout those CAPS)as usual The CHRISTIAN community beats them down with a STICK,

The ungodly LAUGH at you !and no I am not the HALL monitor that title is reserved for AKHENATEN this week Im simply saying PICK ON SOMEONE YOUR OWN SIZE There take that !!Psychopathologist!! Indeed!

Allfaaraa



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June 13, 2009 8:20 AM PDT

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In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:37 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 8:51 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Stratford<You said Historical existence of Yeshua ben Yossef is a fact, Jews who reject this, LIKE SARAH.

Stratford, do you know anything about JUdasim,? UMM There is Someone else they are waiting for, who will come

from Davids line, Even Paul says Rom 11;26 And so all Israel shall be saved, There shall come out of ZION The Deliverer YAADA YAADAAs of this Moment ther are familys in ISRAEL and abroad descending from Davids LINE who could/will give BIRTH to this Deliverer,Mashiac if you will.

Even though Christianity is forced to Verify its SELF through the OT…Tanach

Judasim IS NOT / DOES NOT need the NT to fullfill, complete,inspire or ADD anything to Their RELIGION..So SARAH like most JEWS Would probably disregard/reject Jesus and the NT

What would you expect.?

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:49 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Stratford

So now are we reduced to NAME CALLING? You Deny what you cannot GRASP

And you pick on AKH also PLEASE You say AKH is not really all that impressive>>>>>Well of COURSE NOT Strat, When you cannot Understand HIM, Because he is so FAR over YOUR HEAD, yourLevel of SPIRITUAL Achievement is SHOWING,(youre found wanting) Trust me when I sayYou have MANY more INCARNATIONS TO DO! Hopefully for you there is REINCARNATION

If not if YOUR SOUL is not finished Creating Itself When JESUS comes

your WORKS will be LACKING and I believe, wait let me check my Reincarnation Manual

Oh yes if YOUR SOULS work is not completed YOU will BE Burned UP,

And start ALL over again AS A WORM, According to the Book REINCARNATION FOR DUMMIES,,, You might want to get IT

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 9:02 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 9:41 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
StratfordFERINGI

Thanks for the compliment! I will keep on keepin on Stratford I have no opinion of you, I dont know you I am nota judge or one to form any opinion of you, I made a post yesterday about you jumping on the woman Laurafor no other reason than attempting to Flex your Mental muscles, There was no need in my opinion,You then tell me I need medication, indeed you are correct your POSTS are giving me a headache, you then JUMP on AKHENATEN, and BRYAN Both whosShoes you are not Worthy to TIE,, Spiritually Speaking, so to speak.

And accuse me of telling Amazon your discussion did not add to the content YAADA YAADA As to two posts to make one POINT

The BIBLE throughout the Synoptic Gosples makes the same point OVER and OVER WHY?

So the SPIRITUALLY IGNORANT can mabey Get IT! I only did the same with YOU

Sincderly Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 9:49 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 9:50 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I guess you don’t understand primary source, but I didn’t think you would…..

P.S. technically outside of the Bible, there is no historicity of Jesus, at least none that I’ve seen yet by any biblical scholars.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 9:54 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Great expose on these scriptures!



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June 13, 2009 9:54 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 9:56 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Those were the two I pointed out that I was led to…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 9:57 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 10:02 AM PDT
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Bryan Borich says:
Can’t say, as they have no interest to me. My interests have been in other areas.

And most of my sources are closer to the original source.

However as a contrast to Jesus, try a quick search on Apollynius of Tyana (if I got the spelling right).



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June 13, 2009 10:03 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 10:07 AM PDT

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June 13, 2009 10:09 AM PDT
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Bryan Borich says:
No I didn’t claim expertise in history of that time, although I have knowledge of some things of that time you won’t find in any books……I said go to the SOURCE……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 11:05 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 11:07 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Akhenaton-the historical existence of Yeshua ben Yosef is a fact.

I am well aware of this. I have seen him. That was not the point. Also, the point was not the scholarship, only so much that it’s a bystander’s position. I was merely suggesting Lee get IN both feet and such. I was merely suggesting Lee experience rather than dissect through another’s scholarship. You have missed the mark my friend.



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June 13, 2009 11:13 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 11:38 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Stratford

I too lived in Israel, speak Hebrew Read Hebrew Write a Little, put cant print for Beans…Now you are making posts that make sense ,but I am not Alfa romeo as you are not FERENGITruce, anyhow where did you live in Israel ,in your travels were you ever in Eilat? I lived there in 1970 worked on building a few of the first hotels there, the Neptune and the Malchat Sheba I also helped finish the road construction from Eilat to Sharm el Sheikh, then they gave it all back after the 73 War

I also spent a lot of time in Jerusalem studying Hebrew… I returned home after the War which while in Eilat we were caught up in

vowing to return but never did

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 11:52 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 12:00 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Stratford

Here I thought you said something nice, I write you back and then you slime me the very next post..Am I your enemy because I tell you the truth….As to you being the Intellectual equal to most HERE I never doubted your Intellect

I was and still reffer to your Spiritual Awarness or Conciousness SOUL LEVEL which is what matters with GODand ME, God will not Save you (from what) Due to your INTELLECT Hopefully YOU may realize

That the physcial BODY in which YOU RESIDE has Nothing to do with WHO YOU ARE!!!

And as to your INTELLECT You will be Leaving that BEHIND! Your EGO conciousness will not be Going anywhere WITH YOU

And by the way TUV is actually spelled and pronounced TOV as in GOOD it is not YOM TUV But YOM TOV,P>S Called my Psychiatrist,God SAID Youve been weighed and found WANTING

Alfa ROMEO KishmertuchusYiddush not Hebrew



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June 13, 2009 12:30 PM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
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June 13, 2009 12:32 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
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Akhenaten says:
I flirted with and haggled with an Israeli chick at a kiosk in the mall. LMAO. I’m sorry that made me laugh but it’s true. End result I was hypnotized and bought way too much crap.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 12:45 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 12:56 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: >You go to great lengths to tear down Lee’s post when your responses indicate inferior scholarship and a lack of commitment to serious inquiry.Depends, Ahkhenaton’s scholarship is aimed at the primary source, not second and third hand accounts and guesses.So while Lee’s scholarship is acceptable (note only acceptable), it doesn’t go to the source. It only accepts who and what he thinks is correct from secondary and lesser sources.

LEE: Lee’s scholarship comes from reading the Nag Hammadi and other Gnostic texts and then reading scholarly interpretations of them. And not just by revisionist scholars like King and Pagels (whose work has not been accepted by all scholars) or pop authors. So my scholarship does go to the sources, unlike Akhenaten, who is attempting to reinterpret ancient Gnosticism by his modern, subjective views of it. What Akhenaten and others here are doing with Gnosticism is exactly the same thing many Wiccans do when they assume that ancient Celtic spirituality looked exactly like modern Wiccan belief and practice.

Modern Gnosticism, or neo-Gnosticism is not synonymous with ancient, historic Gnosticism. The ancient Gnostics (and yes, I know this umbrella term encompasses many slightly different sects) weren’t a tolerant, non-judgmental lot of happy post-modernists. We know from our historical sources that Gnostics were a-historical, subjective, and generally down on creation, whereas Christians affirmed the basic goodness of creation (though believing it fallen, corrupted by sin, but that God through Jesus would fix that). The Gnostic high god hates creation, whereas the Jewish-Christian God loves it.

This isn’t my subjective interpretation, this is based upon primary and secondary texts.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 1:40 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 2:02 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
And not just by revisionist scholars like King and Pagels (whose work has not been accepted by all scholars) or pop authors.

Lee, You have accused me of this repeatedly. I have answered this repeatedly. So, either you are just lying concerning me, not holding to what I tell you or ignoring it completely and making assumptions about me and calling it fact, all put you at fault, not me. I have never read King, and may have half read Pagels gnostic Gospels I don’t remember any of it, I have many books I don’t read, I may have stopped due to a lack of depth, I don’t know. I read the Nag Ham. I read the Pistis Sophia, I read the Naassene scroll etc…I don’t care much what others say about them. I am not trying to intellectualize religious thought. Same way I don’t look for scholarly advice when reading the bible. This is beyond the intellect, always has been. This is communion between me and God. Why include scholars. I cannot have their experience they cannot have mine. This is Gnosis, stripped down, bare. I read I discern, I meditate. I don’t want what is said in those books to be explained to me, that would cheapen anything. I read, I get it or I don’t. There is no struggle. I read them repeatedly, I see new things all the time. I do not look to dissect, to pervert, to re-establish what is. As I AM gnostic most things come from mySelf, and my own experience.
though believing it fallen, corrupted by sin, but that God through Jesus would fix that

ermmmm…..and it is fixed?

edit:

The foresight lacking in your all knowing eternal-dying immortal mortal pagan tri god is astonishing.

Edit Edit. Also toss in Irenaeus and Hippolytus, under the what I read category. So yes, I am definitely limited to apologists and pop authors

edit edit edit: Toss in GRS Mead as well, don’t know where you’d classify that but there you are.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 3:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 3:23 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Akn said:

The foresight lacking in YOUR all knowing eternal-dying immortal mortal pagan tri god is astonishing.

My response:
This is oh too telling, Akh. Since there IS only ONE true God and He describes Himself as omniscient, redemptive, ALIVE forever, God of the Universe and Creator of all things IN it, as well as being made up of three persons…God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, and you have the audacity to ridicule His descriptions of Himself as well as to insult Him by saying He is lacking in foresight???? Oy vey! :(Ank, by your own words will you be judged and found lacking. I don’t care what you say, you do NOT know the biblical God, and that begs the question of which ‘god’ you ARE following? I fear for you.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 3:54 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 3:57 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Chris: This is oh too telling, Akh.

Akh: LOL Apparently its not…

Chris: Since there IS only ONE true God and He describes Himself as omniscient, redemptive, ALIVE forever, God of the Universe and Creator of all things IN it, as well as being made up of three persons…God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, and you have the audacity to ridicule His descriptions of Himself as well as to insult Him by saying He is lacking in foresight???? Oy vey! :(

Akh: And a swing and a miss for you Christine. And yes I said that. Biblical, or doctrinal god obviously lacks foresight. Strangely enough he is sighted as man. Weird.

Chris:

Ank, by your own words will you be judged and found lacking. I don’t care what you say, you do NOT know the biblical God, and that begs the question of which ‘god’ you ARE following?

Akh: Which God am I following? If I tell you, you will pick up stones to throw at me, a fire will come forth from those stones and consume you. You want I should describe him that I should sin against him and make less of him with the poor words of man? That’s your Job.

Chris: I fear for you.

Akh: And I you.

So if god the father IS spirit, is he less holy than the HOly spirit? Three persons? Yes, stick with three as the unlimited ASPECTS (NOT persons) would cause you mind to explode. Limiting It to such a word, so small a word as you? You dare ask me to describe THE Ineffable? Rather not. I will leave you with something though….

O HOW may I ever express that secret word?

O how can I say He is not like this, and He is like that?

If I say that He is within me, the universe is ashamed:

If I say that He is without me, it is falsehood.

He makes the inner and the outer worlds to be indivisibly one;

The conscious and the unconscious, both are His footstools.

He is neither manifest nor hidden, He is neither revealed nor unrevealed:

There are no words to tell that which He is.

Light and darkness, life and death, and right and left are siblings of one another, and inseparable. For this reason the good are not good, the bad are not bad, life is not life, and death is not death. Each will dissolve into its original nature, but what is superior to the world cannot be dissolved, for it is eternal.

The names of worldly things are utterly deceptive, for they turn the heart from what is real to what is unreal. Whoever hears the word god thinks not of what is real but rather of what is unreal. So also with the words father, son, holy spirit, life, light, resurrection, church, and all the rest, people do not think of what is real but of what is unreal, [though] the words refer to what is real. The words [that are] heard belong to this world. [Do not be] deceived. If words belonged to the eternal realm, they would never be pronounced in this world, nor would they designate worldly things. They would refer to what is in the eternal realm.

Only one name is not pronounced in the world, the name the Father gave the Son. It is the name above all-it is the Father’s name. For the Son would not have become Father if he had not put on-the Father’s name. Those who have this name understand it but do not speak it. Those who do not have it cannot even understand it.

Truth brought forth names in the world for us, and no one can refer to truth without names. Truth is one and many, for our sakes, to teach us about the one, in love, through the many.

The Oneness being Source and Root of all, is in all things as Root and Source. Without [this] Source is naught; whereas the Source [Itself] is from naught but itself, since it is Source of all the rest. It is Itself Its Source, since It may have no other Source.

The Oneness then being Source, containeth every number, but is contained by none; engendereth every number, but is engendered by no other one.

Now all that is engendered is imperfect, it is divisible, to increase subject and to decrease; but with the Perfect [One] none of these things doth hold. Now that which is increasable increases from the Oneness, but succumbs through its own feebleness when it no longer can contain the One.



Posted on
June 13, 2009 4:33 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
blahdey blahdey blah.

I have the promises of a God who does not lie.

What do you have but a bunch of rhetoric, Akh?

Pathetic…truly




Posted on
June 13, 2009 4:44 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 4:46 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
I have the promises of a God who does not lie.What do you have but a bunch of rhetoric, Akh?I have the promise of a God who does not DIE.

There will come a day my dear where you will wish you had experienced life

A day when the whole of your existence will be measured and found to be fraud

Found to be the words the experience the Feelings (physical) of Others

A vicarious corpse to corpses love. You are all to unimpressive.

The parrot is thin, it’s throat parched and has been found a liar and a poseur. I have what is alive, You speak only of the dead. So who is found lacking? You have insults ONLY insults. That’s it. You don’t even rebut with dead script. Seems I will have to do that?

For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Now where is it? You are a fraud and a liar Christine. An ugliness shines from within you, at your age you should know better. I can speak freely. You can’t. I can do this without insulting, you can’t. But yes, I am pathetic, thank you very much. This is the Grace of god you have bestowed on me I’m guessing? Your bloated ego has run amok. You are done, Samael. Over, A joke.



Posted on
June 13, 2009 5:05 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Christ came to die for YOUR sins and mine. Without that death, burial and resurrection, we would all still be dead in our sins with NO HOPE whatsoever.

I insult your belief system, and your proud sense of self that has no need of a God who saw YOUR need and came to earth to meet it on the Cross.

The grace of God has appeared unto ALL men, but some, unfortunately, have chosen to ignore it.

I have no ego. I do have a God who came to die for my sin debt so that I could be reconciled to Him. Those who do not believe that God came to die for their sins, and rose again as proof positive that His payment was indeed sufficient, are doomed to stay in the sins they think He didn’t die for and to be separated from Him forever.

Them’s the facts and you WILL deal with them one day. I hope you will come out of your intellectually superior stupor long enough to humble yourself before a God who proved His love for you in that while you ARE a sinner still, He died for that sin debt. Until you believe it, you are separated from His life and are deader than a doornail spiritually.

Better to hear it from me, than to hear it from Him. There is still time to change your mind.



Posted on
June 13, 2009 5:29 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
How is the blood of a man more sufficient than the forgiveness of the God. You make a mistake as the gentiles twisted the hell concept into a power play of propaganda. It was NEVER forever. God never left never leaves, Will NOT. The Gates of teshuva are ALWAYS open. You fear for me, and I fear for you that you have deified a man and placed him as god. As far as intellectually superior stupor, I have NEVER claimed intellect. Not once, never claimed superiority over another. That has even been addressed by me in THIS thread. Not a fan of intellect you can have it, you can play the crafty politician. These are not facts you present but a skewed vision of reality propagated by YOUR EGO, to say you have a false self is untrue and you know it, to say you are ONE…really? Then again you have transfigured? Don’t tell me you remain here to play the perverted bodhisattva. I have heard your lies, your misunderstanding of sin. Heard it all, it doesn’t jive, it isn’t biblical in the least. Deader than a doornail spiritually? How do you know me so that you can just that? Sure judge by the fruit and all but you have no understanding of the fruit I shed. Not that I am above you in anyway…..Well I guess I’ll end this….not in the mood anymore, mormons came to my door and told me the same thing you have.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 5:36 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Akh,

Thank you for your wise words. Amazing that so many cannot see the truth. I don’t know how you have the patience for some of them. I’ve mostly stopped posting on this forum because I got tired of the same lame arguments by those who are stubborn and want a belief system they can cling to more than the direct intuition of the truth.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 7:35 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 7:37 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
AKHENATEN: And not just by revisionist scholars like King and Pagels (whose work has not been accepted by all scholars) or pop authors.Lee, You have accused me of this repeatedly. I have answered this repeatedly. So, either you are just lying concerning me, not holding to what I tell you or ignoring it completely and making assumptions about me and calling it fact, all put you at fault, not me. I have never read King, and may have half read Pagels gnostic Gospels I don’t remember any of it, I have many books I don’t read, I may have stopped due to a lack of depth, I don’t know. I read the Nag Ham. I read the Pistis Sophia, I read the Naassene scroll etc…I don’t care much what others say about them. I am not trying to intellectualize religious thought. Same way I don’t look for scholarly advice when reading the bible. This is beyond the intellect, always has been. This is communion between me and God. Why include scholars. I cannot have their experience they cannot have mine. This is Gnosis, stripped down, bare. I read I discern, I meditate. I don’t want what is said in those books to be explained to me, that would cheapen anything. I read, I get it or I don’t. There is no struggle. I read them repeatedly, I see new things all the time. I do not look to dissect, to pervert, to re-establish what is. As I AM gnostic most things come from mySelf, and my own experience. though believing it fallen, corrupted by sin, but that God through Jesus would fix thatermmmm…..and it is fixed?edit:The foresight lacking in your all knowing eternal-dying immortal mortal pagan tri god is astonishing.Edit Edit. Also toss in Irenaeus and Hippolytus, under the what I read category. So yes, I am definitely limited to apologists and pop authorsedit edit edit: Toss in GRS Mead as well, don’t know where you’d classify that but there you are.

LEE: You’ll forgive me for being a bit wary of anyone who tries to explain a very intricate, complicated, ancient historical religious movement or group of movements like Gnosticism, yet says he doesn’t think scholars’ opinions are worth bothering with.

When studying a 1800 year-old ancient religious sect I prefer to rely upon the expertise of scholars who spend their whole lives studying it. And before I can discern what any ancient text, religious or otherwise, means or is saying to me, I first have to understand what it was saying to its original audience all those centuries years ago. I don’t care if you’re talking about Epicurianism Judaism, Gnosticism, or Christianity. As for Christianity, it teaches that God is a God or order and reason as much as of the emotions. God gave us minds he expects us to use in comprehending him. The problem of basing one’s whole religious life around subjective emotions, feelings, intuition, etc., is the penchant for such subjective perceptions to be misleading and deceptive.

As for God sacrificing himself, what higher demonstration of God’s love for the whole created world could he show than offering himself as the ransom for sin that ONLY he could pay? That kind of love is pretty awesome. The ancient Gnostic high god wouldn’t do that. No, the world isn’t fully fixed yet, but God began the process when Jesus was bodily resurrected and via his parousia enthroned as Lord and King of the cosmos. At Jesus’ second parousia he will set the world totally to rights, just as Aslan did Narnia in the Chronicles. So Christianity isn’t against using your emotions. It isn’t against feeling. It just says there’s an intellectual, rational component to it. I’m truly sorry you don’t seem to understand this. You’d better stick to your interpretive method, and I’ll stick to mine.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:46 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
What you would call the Holy Spirit. Also Jesus. Spirit Guardian of death (IIRC). Among others.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:50 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
No your sources go to second guessers and theorists.

Next time talk to the primary subject of the material……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:52 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually you’re the one who claimed he lacked foresight in that he actually had to come up with a second plan because the first one failed.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 8:56 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
As H.S. put it:

Oh darlin… In a sky full of people, only some want to fly, Isn’t that crazy? In a world full of people, only some want to fly, Isn’t that crazy? Crazy… In a heaven of people there’s only some want to fly, Ain’t that crazy? Oh babe… Oh darlin… In a world full of people there’s only some want to fly, Isn’t that crazy? Isn’t that crazy… Isn’t that crazy… Isn’t that crazy…



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 10:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 10:08 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Lee,

You’re forgiven. I understand your wariness, I really do. It’s for spiritual purposes I look to such things and I look to them not to give me truth but point to truth. I would be fascinated to learn of the intellectual side but as you have said most out their is pop authors. Which I believe you mean either a completely biased study, an author choosing a topic to sell books or both. So, I am wary to trust many of the books written and therefore have to rely on the church fathers who I don’t always agree with and often notice things they have missed or misinterpreted but that’s all I have. If you would please recommend any writers or books you see as valid on the subject. I would appreciate that. These can even be Christian apologists or other writers you may think I would consider biased. Again, the topic seems too broad to sort through and I wouldn’t want to fill my head with anything false. As for the sacrifice. I see a man in whom God dwelled fully. I saw a lover of life, I saw a man who loved life and people so much he was willing to push, to go so far to risk his own that we could truly live. I see his uncertainty, I saw his sorrow his terror as he cried, begged and blood issued from his pores that he asked God (himself?) to let the cup Pass from him (God?) if it be the will of God (him?) Now that God (yeshua) would not know God (fathers) will troubles me. So Christianity isn’t against using your emotions. It isn’t against feeling. I know it is not. I am not against them. I speak of feeling (physical) as you can, one who is open can physically feel god and Christine who floats around as well as others speak against feelings.It just says there’s an intellectual, rational component to it.Agreed. That is part, it’s always part, but not the whole. You pound the rational so hard I assume (and this is where I am in the wrong) that you have missed the other parts. I can only assume that you have refined, sought this, pushed this side more as to argue atheists who claim no proof for historical Yeshua/Christ, I assume you push this as to stick, to hit on something within that may change their mind. The mind has it’s issues though, can always counter with it’s doubts, so I speak my nonsense, in an attempt to stir the soul. Anyway, I do not leave the intellect out completely, I can just ignore it as it comes up reacts…..we are trained to use it. The intellect will always be their. I commend you to the lengths you go to to make your argument. I believe you sincere. You’d better stick to your interpretive method, and I’ll stick to mine.I will try to better bridge the gap, I will put in more of the rational. The issue is I know FULLY, my experience, I can speak on that, I can go full circle with that. I would rather not begin an intellectual debate I cannot finish as I would most likely not know all the facts. I would not want to lead anyone astray. Not be capable of bringing them to the end result. I hope that make sense and you understand. I don’t expect you to like me, I am comfortable if you think me a heretic but I respect you and am not your enemy. God bless.

Nefer-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re

Edit: God gave us minds he expects us to use in comprehending him

I believe he expects us to use them, I don’t think he wants them to use us. I also believe to comprehend him we need his mind. Also concerning the date of the systems and such, I feel if I am fully in the NOW, then I am where they men who wrote those things were. I can be no place else. I do not make up, reinterpret script as I go along. I either understand immediately or not, I do not dissect, if I don’t get it, I don’t believe I am ready, if I go many years without it clicking catching hitting…I take it as a wrong teaching. I put it aside, if correct and my time comes I will one day remember it.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 10:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 13, 2009 10:35 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Akhenaten, I don’t dislike you, nor am I mad at you or anybody else. I just would ask you (and others) to keep an open mind and be willing to think outside the box, to engage with views and interpretations you might not be familiar with. Too many people here seems to treat orthodox, historic Christianity as a cartoon, and it isn’t. Christianity didn’t pull its beliefs out of thin air, nor does it ask people to check their brains at the door in order to believe them. There were very good, intellectual reasons for why the Church fathers rejected Gnosticism and the Gnostic Jesus in favor of the NT Jesus. It had nothing to do with the silly notion prevalent among skeptics and atheists in these forums that they only wanted to control or persecute people or act as ‘thought police.

Here are some books I’d recommend on ancient Gnosticism, and a few on Gnosticism and its relationship to Christianity, and why Gnosticism is incompatible with the real Jesus, by credible NT scholars and historians:

The Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth Behind Alternative Christianities, by Darrell Bock.

Hidden Gospels: How The Search for Jesus Lost Its Way, by Philip Jenkins.

Thomas and Tatian: The Relationship Between the Gospel of Thomas and the Diatesseron, by Nick Perrin.

A Seperate God: The Christian Origins of Gnosticism by Dr. Simone Peteremont.

NT Wright’s Judas and the Gospel of Jesus: Have We Missed the Truth About Christianity?

Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus, ed. by Michael Wilkins and JP Moreland. Among other topics, this has an essay on what Christianity teaches about reason and the intellect and why being sure our religious/spiritual beliefs are as accurate as possible is important.

All I’d ask is that you read with an open mind.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 13, 2009 11:40 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan,

The second plan was set into motion before the world began, with God KNOWING that Israel would be deceived and that satan was trying to thwart Gods redemptive plan. So you see, He had plenty of foresight, and you have plenty of things to learn before accusing your Creator of such silly things.



Posted on
June 13, 2009 11:49 PM PDT

Allan says:
Don’t the Hebrew texts also say there is nothing at all after death?

And, oh, please understand the differernce between the Tanach satans and the Christian Satan, based on Ahriman as understood by the Jews in exile.



Posted on
June 14, 2009 5:55 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
There is NO text, hebrew, aramaic, or greek that say nothing happens after death.

Quite the contrary.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 6:06 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Nov. 21, 2009 8:29 AM PST]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 7:21 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Amplify in what way on what? (just to make sure I understand you).

There are something like 36 Spirit Guardians in ‘charge’ I guess you could say of various ‘realms’. From what I understand currently (I’m always open to the ‘truth’ possibly changing on me as I learn more – and I always keep questioning what I understand, but anyway), the Spirit Guardian of Death has the power to show you your past and future lives, including scenes.

As for how I commune, by various methods, meditation being one (one of the purposes of prayer/meditation is to teach mindfulness, part of mindfulness, is to learn to commune with what Christians would call the Holy Spirit). And they communicate with me by various means, dreams, music, by leading me to read certain things, or even watching certain things. When I have a question for them, it has to be a heart felt question and something important I need to know, sometimes the ‘answer’ comes immediately, sometimes it takes time (in one case I remember it took about a year, in another case more recently a few years).

The ‘truth’ in spiritual matters tends to be extremely flexible, everybody has there own truth. It’s the way God designed the system, since everybody is unique, he designed it so everybody can learn what they need to learn at their own pace. Even what I need to know can change from lifetime to lifetime. Same for everyone else.

I appreciate Lee’s scholarly learning, and it’s good that you are/have been trying to read the original text in the original language.

Lee’s fallacy lies in he goes in with ‘accepted’ mainstream scholars, this is the biggest fallacy people make, you’ll rarely find scientific truth in the mainstream, something always comes along and upsets the apple cart, and the old truth gets dumped and a new one appears. In spiritual matters it’s even worse, you will never find the truth in the mainstram, because the mainstream is always ‘lost’.

I wouldn’t necessarily mind studying some of the writers that Lee has studied, however at this time I don’t particularly feel drawn to them for any reason. What I know, already lies beyond anything they could tell me right now. Interestingly enough, Pagel was the one I was lead to, I couldn’t have even have told you why I purchased her book, or some of the others I did at the time tell I read it.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 7:33 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 7:37 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
At the time I was led to read about what the church ‘fathers’ did, I didn’t think they did what they did intentionally, I believed they did what they did because they had no understanding of what they were destroying. Now, I’m not so sure. But in any case, at the moment they did that, they killed the teachings of Jesus.

By saying God can’t do this, or can’t do that, by saying the God of diversity could only define one path towards him, you stick him in the same box you stick yourself in. And because you’ve locked yourself in one, you try locking everybody else in. Not realizing what you’ve done.

Jesus would be amused to find he wasn’t a gnostic when in fact he was, it’s why he spoke in parables, it was his way to share the knowledge he needed to spread to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see. But to others the meanings would be other than what they were meant to be. The baby food to be fed to those not yet ready.

And I don’t mean to be disrepectful.

Btw, I agree with a lot of what the Gnostics said than, but I have a better idea of what they were saying than some deaf and blind scholars. Who search the sea and the sky and under the log, everywhere but where they are supposed too…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 7:47 AM PDT

Allan says:
Christine, with regard to your answers to my two points:
1/ You are plain wrong, and I hope I can spare the time to find the relevant text. Should be in the Torah, though.
2/ …. Ah, no. you failed to address that one. Sorry.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 9:57 AM PDT

stratfordfirenze says:
Bryan-is there a text you are referring to?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:01 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
text for what?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:23 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 10:25 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Dear Allan,

We do not live by the Torah, but by the gospel of the GRACE of God in this present age of GRACE. God set Israel and the law aside temporarily and is no longer operating thru the law of Moses.

Why would you seek to follow something that even Israel couldn’t do? Do you not know that God changed programs?

Life and death are issues clearly dealt with in the Scriptures. Lazarus died and was still seeing, hearing and feeling and speaking as well, trying to get someone to go and warn people so that they didn’t end up where he was…so that kind of tosses your theory that after death is NOTHING.

God would definitely disagree with you on that one….:)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:35 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 10:53 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

Hey Bryan seems you hasve hijacked the thread from Christianity to Spirituality, good job!

Have you heard or do you know of Lamed VAV,in Hebrew the concept of the 36 you are speaking of?

I belive that at this time the number has increased to 72 Guardians in charge of the spiritual realms

You said The ‘truth’ in spiritual matters is flexible everyone has there own truth

it is the way GOD designed the system

so that everybody can learn what they need to learn at their own pace..You are telling the TRUTH, LOL However this Truth you are speaking about goes Directly to ReincarnationEvery ones ‘Truth is Matched to the LEVEL of Spiritual CONCIOUSNESS or SOUL level if you willIt cannot be any other way….Spiritual Conciousness is Earned, Bryan you make great points about accepted mainstream scholars, Fallacy agreed TO THE OTHER POSTERS , CHRISTINE this includes YOUALL on these forums have varying Levels of Spiritual Conciousness, Wait stop Im dancing let me be direct!SOUL LEVEL ok thats it Each individuals Soul LEVEL varies from Soul to Soul and from person to personOne can only comprehend Spiritual wisdom especially the Spiritual Wisdom found in the BIBLE ‘EQUAL tothe level of Spiritual Conciousness they have attained or SOUL LEVEL….attained…The Bible is a Treasure trove of TRUTH and Spiritual Wisdom, But it is written to Your SOUL, not Your Intellect

Intellect and Reason may get you so far ,such as many Main stream Christian Scholars have realized theywho throw TRUTH to the GROUND and argue Faith and Works EternallyBut the BIBLE is not /does not work ‘intellectually’ or ‘reasonably’ it only works SpirituallyIt seems that the Spiritual Level of Mainstream Christianity is kept LOW on purpose, Not by God but by your Church

Do you Understand that The Spirit is given FOR PROFIT It is your task your PURPOSE to INCREASE said Spirit!That is your task, your mission Your Purpose and this HOW you SERVE GOD…Do any of YOU understand the PARABLE Matt 25;14 The Parable of SERVANTS this goes directly to SPIRIT FOR PROFIT.If YOU dont Produce IT(Spirit) will be TAKEN FROM YOU!! Dont YOU get IT!!But how can you Serve GOD with your INtellect? When you DIE and leave this PRISON you are in( the you is the real you Soul)Your INTELLECT will be left behind, Reason will not go with YOU only Your Treasures in Heaven your Silver and GOLDwill be waiting for YOU, LEE in a post you said Think outside the BOX, Can you? When I used 1Peter1;3 as an example to Reincarnation,you throw Christianity 101 at me and say no, no this is about Being Born AGAIN A Christian Ceremony Tradition yaada yaada,For a moment LEE forget what you think you know and do not automatically spill Church Doctrine/Philosophy to what I present to you, ok

I will define Reincarnation for you in the simpliest of terms, But first let me define INCARNATION

The only thing that Incarnates is ONES SOUL the real YOU , BTW ,The Soul in the Flesh (or attached at least )each SOUL is assigneda body.. Upon the DEATH of the body the SOUL is Freed and returns from where it CAME…Unincarnate is now the STATUS of that SOUL, It makes no difference whether you think it is in Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Hades, Sheol etc

The status of that SOUL is UNINCARNATE..REincarnate/Reincarnation Any SOUL that is BROUGHT INTO the FLESH AGAIN,this is not your, Intellect, your Concious mind/EGOThoughts, Memories yaada yaada, ANY SOUL brought into FLESH for a SECOND time or more is Reincarnation,IT is the SOUL not the PERSON /personal conciousness which REINCARNATES as in Man/EGOFor this to make sense you must Understand WHO or WHAT YOU ARE

Know YOU not, that YOU are an IMMORTAL SPIRIT

The Body that YOU are LIVING IN has Nothing TO DO with WHO or What YOU REALLY ARE?

If you cant understand this,then you cant understand ME or MY words, As JESUS says If you cant understand the EARTHLY How can you understand the HEAVENLY

LEE; many of those Mainstream Christian SCHOLARS sound just like NicodemusJESUS Himself is teaching /preaching RE incarnation to the JEWS and , Nicodemus LIKE ALL OF YOU

are DENYING HIM not understanding HIS TEACHINGS,You reduce them(teachings JESUS) to TRADITIONS and Ceremoniesthat dont MAKE SENSE

Jn 3;4 Nicodemus said ?How can a man be born when he is OLD?Jesus was refferring to the SPIRIT begotten BORN AGAIN into FLESH This is REINCARNATION

Born AGAIN NEEDS no translation Born AGAIN is straight reincarnation CLEARLY

Jesus teachings are Simple Spiritual Truths Which you as Christians Twist Turn and REDUCEto fit Youre Reasonable/Rational Minds….I spent 20 years teaching metaphysics ,read almost every BOOK, some of them pretty out there One dayI picked up The BIBLE I immeaditely realized All the SPIRITUAL answers I was seeking Were Contained Within!

And I was led to Other BOOKS also, Gnostic,Apocrypha,Pseudepigrapha,Kabbalah etc

NOW I READ ONLY ONE BOOK Daily

I read no Christian books,or any BOOKS other than Scripture,(except mentioned) So as not to Contaminate my INFORMATION Provided me by the HOLY SPIRIT… My ONLY TEACHER

I am trying to read ,if SPIRIT allows, books on the EARLY CHURCH and am TRYING to understand Church Doctrine(without cracking up)that many of you throw at me All of the TIME. The TRUTH of the BIBLE cannot be understood through reason or intellect

Reason and Intellect are the Rusted Silver and Gold the Moth Eatten treasures Spoken of by JESUS

GOD is SPIRIT His WORDS are Spirit They can only be understood Through SPIRIT….1Peter1;3 Blessed be God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a living hope

LEE Begotten is brought into Flesh, or INCARNATION AGAIN , means A SECOND TIME This is REINCARNATION

Strongs 1080 Gennao(Greek) To Regenerate, Strongs 313 Anagennao(Greek) Bring forth AGAIN

The thing BROUGHT FORTH Again is the SOUL Brought into FLESH AGAIN Reincarnation…You AS Christians have Reduced the POWER OF GOD and his CHRIST to the TRADITIONS of MEN

Therebye Nullifying the WORD OF GOD , God does not care about INTELLECT, nor SCHOLARLY WIT

GOD cares about YOUR Treasures in HEAVEN Your WORKS, Youre FRUIT

THIS is what GOES with YOU/To YOU when YOU The SOUL Leave youre Prison!

Whether You believe in Reincarnation ,or Not makes no Difference, GOD determines whether you WILL Reincarnate or WONT

although you the SOUL do Have Free WILL.

Reincarnation is not taught in the CHURCH , But it is Spoken about CLEARLY in the BIBLEJesus also mentions the REGENERATION, and as Christians dont you believe that YOU will return to EARTH with JESUS

at his Comming It is the REAL YOU the SOUL which will RETURN with JESUS hopefully?

And if you are REGENERATED You are REINCARNATED, its that SIMPLE,The SOUL, YOU ‘Generated again into FLESH

This is simple STUFF I made it Very Simple So you can GRASP it

Sincerly Allfaaraa

BORN AGAIN is REINCARNATION ,BEGOTTEN AGAIN also REINCARNATION



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:37 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 10:53 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Allan, if I may give you my opinion on something. I believe God never meant for anyone to live under the law, not even the Israelites. I believe it was the priests who added laws and regulations to God’s grace. Then, when He sent Jesus to earth to remind the then Jews about how they were following laws that God never intended, the Pharisees became angry towards Jesus, but many of the people were relieved to find that God was not a puppet master nor a dictator, as their spiritual leaders had represented God. The Pharisees had much to lose by the Truth coming out. They had fame and fortunes to lose, and the respect and admiration of the people. There were still a few priests in Jesus’ time, like Nicodemus, whom actually heard the message that Jesus brought to them directly from the Father. Their hunger to know more about the real God was awoken, but they had to secretly listen to him or follow. I believe that these spiritual leaders who listened to Jesus got their reward in heaven. The Pharisees and other religious leaders who preferred Man’s adulation over the Truth, I also believe they got their rewards, wherever they sent themselves, away from God.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:40 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

As long as you get your spiritual knowledge primarily from books and authorities, you will never know the real Christ. If there is any truth to religion or spirituality, it is found through direct, personal experience. When the noisy chatter of the mind is quieted, when there is inner silence, then Spirit is revealed. Until then, there is endless thinking, mental concepts, beliefs, doubts, opposition, disagreement, trying to be good and failing, clinging, rejecting, etc. What’s true about Gnosticism is that it points to the Spirit of Christ within, and that it taught some of the secret, esoteric techniques for God communion. Because most modern Christians do not practice methods of God communion, they miss the true depth within their religious tradition and within themselves.



Posted on
June 14, 2009 10:42 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
If what one believes is not backed up with what the Word of God says, dispensationally, then it is no more than speculation and opinion. We all know about opinions…they are like belly buttons and everyone has one.

Stick to the the Word of God and what HE says is true, instead of listening to every tom , dick and harry tell you what they believe. Who cares??? It is only what God says that is true, not what someone believes. I can believe I am a frito…but if facts don’t back it up, my beliefs are nothing more than pie in the sky and flimsy fantasy.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:48 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Hi Rosita Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:59 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
[Deleted by Amazon on June 14, 2009 12:52 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:01 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 11:02 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
IFellFree said: As long as you get your spiritual knowledge primarily from books and authorities, you will never know the real Christ. If there is any truth to religion or spirituality, it is found through direct, personal experience. When the noisy chatter of the mind is quieted, when there is inner silence, then Spirit is revealed. Until then, there is endless thinking, mental concepts, beliefs, doubts, opposition, disagreement, trying to be good and failing, clinging, rejecting, etc.

Me: I agree with what you just stated with all my heart. It’s easy to voice (or rehash) the opinion of other people, there’s much difficulty in articulating a thought or opinion of our own. By doing so, we will never learn to think on our own, and we will never have an opinion of our own. Many don’t want to do the work of sitting before God and just asking, and then waiting for a reply. It’s much easier to have others think and experience for us. It’s less threatening to our sense of security also. This is what differs between leaders and followers.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:03 AM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hello Allfaara. How are you today? Very good, I hope!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:17 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

Is that the book from Elle KIM 2005Might be something Id want to read.. Or is it Rene Guenon?

Of course you cant know till you are ready, the questions you want to ask,,, arent the answers provided without even asking the Questions

Audibly? if not they soon will be..Yes indeed there are things one does not need To Know in that lifetime, However this would depend on The level one isincarnating within, in a given lifetime Karma brought foreward yaada

YES you got it.. things dont translate till you have some experience of it,,,Wisdom is earned , Through experience, yes

Allfaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:27 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 11:32 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I have no idea what books it’s from, I just thought it was rather funny when I found it and it’s like oh, that’s what’s meant by Justified and Ancient.>Of course you cant know till you are ready, the questions you want to ask,,, arent the answers provided without even asking the Questions>Audibly? if not they soon will be..

Yes I don’t have to ask the questions audibly, I just need to ponder them in my mind, but it also has to be heartfelt. I can have certain other questions wondering through my mind, but a lot fall into the category it doesn’t really matter type. However others fall into, I really really need an answer on this.And sometimes I’m told of things that happen in advance or afterwards that I’m not allowed to recall directly either because I wouldn’t understand, or couldn’t comprehend what I see (sometimes i think that sucks, on the other hand at least I’m being told something).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:28 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
[Deleted by the author on June 14, 2009 11:28 AM PDT]
Posted on
June 14, 2009 11:36 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
One point I should make.Even the ‘spiritually advanced’ sometimes lock themselves in boxes without realizing it, partially because they have preconceptions they view things through the same as everyone else.

It’s why it’s always important to keep questioning what you think you ‘know’. Sometimes the answer will change and sometimes you realize you asked the question incorrectly and that might give you more depth to the answer once you rephrase it.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:41 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan>What I see sometimes I think that it sucks.

Has it or IS it happening to you where you see something think that it sucks or… and then within a shortperiod you see that what you thought sucked actually had to happen for the GOOD of yaada yaada

Ive found that what I dont like in things that happen to me and others that when it all comes around(now faster and faster) what I didnt like turned out to be ,In my or their best interests

Ive found more an d,more to ALLOW, usually finding out through allowing or surrender I am doingGods Will not mine..

Alfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:43 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan Im thinking to head over to Christines new threadsthat just poped up

And get bashed by Christine

see ya

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:53 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
IFF: Thank you for your wise words. Amazing that so many cannot see the truth. I don’t know how you have the patience for some of them.

Akh: It’s because I believe them to be worth my time, worth the patience.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:56 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 14, 2009 11:59 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFEELFREE: Lee,As long as you get your spiritual knowledge primarily from books and authorities, you will never know the real Christ. If there is any truth to religion or spirituality, it is found through direct, personal experience. When the noisy chatter of the mind is quieted, when there is inner silence, then Spirit is revealed. Until then, there is endless thinking, mental concepts, beliefs, doubts, opposition, disagreement, trying to be good and failing, clinging, rejecting, etc. What’s true about Gnosticism is that it points to the Spirit of Christ within, and that it taught some of the secret, esoteric techniques for God communion. Because most modern Christians do not practice methods of God communion, they miss the true depth within their religious tradition and within themselves.

LEE: How do I know my experience is real or geunine? I say, how do you know reincarnation is true, and people say trust your feelings. But what if I asked someone How do I know this used car I’m thinking of buying is the one I should buy? and you responded, Trust your feelings. Don’t think too much about it. Don’t try to look at the car, check under the hood or try to drive it, just ‘experience’ the car. Would that be a very wise thing to do? No. The best way to TRULY experience the car would be to look under the hood and take it for a test drive. Now is that saying that subjective things like aesthetics-the model, or color, whether hard-top or convertibleActually, Christianitry has A LOT to say abo, don’t play a difference? No, of course not. People drive often cars that fit their personality. But that doesn’t obviate the need to think rationally about whether the car’s in good mechanical shape before I buy it. You see, I bought a car once based solely on how it LOOKED, and how I’D look with my beautiful girlfriend, crusing with the top down. The car was a piece of junk, but all I could see was the aesthetics of how it LOOKED. Until it laid down and died.And actually Christianity has a lot to say about God communion. But-significantly-Christianity teaches that God is real, and exists outside human time and space, in another dimension, if you will, what Christians usually call heaven. Unlike ancient Gnosticism (and modern re-interpretations of it) Christianity believes in a PERSONAL creator-God, outside that creation, who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and filled with love for his good created world and the people he put on it. The very basis of our faith teaches us that mankind rebelled against God and we lost the intimate, personal communion we had with God. But Jesus, by his death and resurrection, the only method that could get the job done, has restored that broken communion. Jesus was God with skin on. God came down to earth personally, to live life as one of us, to experience what we experience, including the horrors of physical death; but God bodily resurrected him. Thus Christianity isn’t just an intellectual exercise. Everyone who believes in Christ is called to walk in close, personal communion with him. This is made possible because God puts his own Holy Spirit inside each one of us, thus God IS literally within us, just not in quite the way modrern Gnostics mean.

Nor is Christianity opposed to meditation and introspection. There is a vibrant mystical tradition within Christianity. God himself says in scripture Be still and know that I am God. Unfortunately some Christians forget this, and never slow down. They should read the Rule of St. Benedict or St. John of the Cross. Unfortunately many people go to either extreme, either total experiential subjectivism, or total rational intellectualism, when instead Jesus was all about balance.

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
June 14, 2009 12:36 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
The very basis of our faith teaches us that mankind rebelled against God and we lost the intimate, personal communion we had with God.

I don’t understand this, it says quite the opposite in the Tanakh. Sarah has posted multiple instances where God says he will not leave, not even in hell.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 12:41 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
St. John of the Cross.

I have brought him up many times. They seem not to care. He had the most beautiful understanding of the subtle body etc.. within Christianity…but then that’s just my opinion.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 8:21 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
No exactly, I usually know why it had to happen the way it did, just sometimes I used to wonder whether giving thing up so to speak was worth it. Now it no longer matters.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 8:27 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
St. John of the Cross was a Gnostic as was his counterpart. Some of his writings (I don’t know which ones offhand) cover the burning off of karma on those following the path of wisdom (buddhist).

You might want to read the folowing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

Btw before we rebelled what happened was that we lost touch with ourselves.

One of the things we are learning is to reconnect.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:10 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
If you use the word as interchangeable with mystic and adept yes…..he would be considered such…ummm….no furthers comments.

Nine verses made upon an ecstasy of high contemplation by Saint John of the Cross

I entered in, not knowing where,

And there remained uncomprehending,

All knowledge transcending.

I entered – where – I did not know,

Yet when I found that I was there,

Though where I was I did not know,

Profound and subtle things I learned;

Nor can I say what I discerned,

For I remained uncomprehending,

All knowledge transcending.

Of peace and holy truth

It was knowledge to perfection,

Within the depths of solitude

The narrow path of wisdom;

A secret so profoundly hidden

That I was left there stammering,

All knowledge transcending.

I was so caught up and rapt away,

In such oblivion immersed,

That every sense and feeling lay

Of sense and feeling dispossessed;

And so my mind and soul were blessed

To understand not understanding,

All knowledge transcending.

The one who truly reaches there

No longer in himself remains,

And all that he had known at first

Seems base and mean to him, and wanes

So great a knowledge the he gains

That he is left uncomprehending

All knowledge transcending.

His understanding is the less endowed

The more he climbs to greater heights

To understand the shadowed cloud

Which there illuminates the night;

Thus he who comprehends this sight

Will always stay not understanding,

All knowledge transcending.

This knowledge through uncomprehending

Is of such supreme dominion

That by learned men contending

It is never grasped or won;

Their learning never lights upon

The knowledge of unknowing,

Beyond all knowledge going.

And that exalted wisdom

Is of such a high degree,

It can be undertaken

By no art or faculty;

Who know the way to mastery

By a knowledge that unknowns

Transcending ever goes.

And if you wish to hear,

This highest knowledge is conceived

In a sense, sublime and clear

Of the essence of the Deity;

It is an act of His great Clemency

That keeps us there uncomprehending,

All knowledge transcending.

The truly mystic man knows that the rationalist outlook is a corruption of understanding, which displaces the direct and silent knowing of God, incommunicable in words. What if the inspired man wishes to speak to those who only understand words? The paradox is then in the hands of the inspired man, a tool to order the cognitive elements instead of placing them as opposites.

In this beautiful poem, St. John of the Cross speaks to us about two ways of acquiring knowing: one from the mind, and one from the spirit. Because knowing from the spirit is superior than knowing from the mind, the latter is overwhelmed, thus surrenders its privilege to spiritual knowledge, allowing a coexistence of both views in the same man. In other words, in this poem, when he ignores God and considers Him to be inscrutable, it’s because he uses his reason, and fails to grasp the totality. But as an inspired man, he subordinates his reasoning to his spirit, and so he knows even what seems to be unknowable.Undoubtedly, it is necessary to revaluate our current priorities in knowledge, in order that they might reach a whole notion of Truth.



Posted on
June 14, 2009 10:33 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:12 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 10:51 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
AKHENATEN: The very basis of our faith teaches us that mankind rebelled against God and we lost the intimate, personal communion we had with God.I don’t understand this, it says quite the opposite in the Tanakh. Sarah has posted multiple instances where God says he will not leave, not even in hell.

LEE: God didn’t leave us-we left him. The Hebrew Bible is quite clear that the sin of Adam resulted in a separation of mankind from God. We sinned by disobeying God, by choosing to go our own way rather than remaining in communion with him, which resulted in sin and death affecting humans and the whole of creation being held in bondage. As he is a holy God, he cannot remain in close communion with beings stained by sin. So he put a rescue operation into effect whereby he became a human and sacrificed himself to save all of his creation, including us, and restore that severed communion. God became one of us, and became sin so that we might live. Jesus fulfilled what Israel was incapable of doing, and brought salvation, not just to Israel, but to the whole world. Christianity teaches that Old and New Testaments are one seamless garment, one tapestry. Jesus fulfilled the expectations Israel was looking for, although not in exactly the ways the popular Judaism of the time was expecting.This is something Sarah just cannot understand, and quite frankly seems unwilling to try to understand. She seems to interprets ancient Judaism through the lens of modern Reformed Rabbinic Judaism, which historically didn’t exist until centuries after the time of the Torah, and of Jesus and the NT. The Jews of the Old Testament wouldn’t recognize modern rabbinic Judaism any more than the anient Celts would recognize modern Wicca.

If you are seriously interested in understanding Christianity I would recommend to start out with, NT Wright’s Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense. Then, if you want something much more scholarly and intellectual, try his The New Testament and the People of God, or his Jesus and the Victory of God. Wright explains how Jesus fits into Jewish theology, how Jesus was/is the long-awaited Hebrew Messiah who brought salvation to the whole world, and why Jesus isn’t a pious Christian myth or a malicious lie. Wright’s The Resurrection of the Son of God, is simply THE best academic defense of the historical bodily resurrection of Jesus ever written. This Anglican bishop, historian, NT scholar and former Oxford professor knows his stuff. Any skeptic who argues that Wright is nothing but a weak-minded fundamentalist apologist has no idea what they’re talking about and has obviously never read him. Wright is quickly becoming the 21st century’s Rudoplh Bultmann in terms of the scope, magnitude, importance and ground-breaking paths of his work. No serious Christiann or skeptic, whether academic or layman, can ignore NT Wright. He’s engaged in debate with many of the finest skeptical scholars, from John Dominic Crossan to Marcus Borg to Michael Goulder.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 14, 2009 11:53 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
LEE: God didn’t leave us-we left him. The Hebrew Bible is quite clear that the sin of Adam resulted in a separation of mankind from God

That never happened in Judaism, was never even really a sin to miss the mark was referred to as a mistake. What does he have to do with me anyway? Logically…please explain that. more than the anient Celts would recognize modern Wicca.

Is this your new catch phrase? I’m kinda busy so I can’t read the rest of your post right now.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 1:44 AM PDT

Allan says:
Obviously something I’ve said has set you off on the wrong track, Christine. The Torah, like the rest of the various forms of the Bible, is not terribly relevant in my own search, which takes in much wider parameters.I never did say there is nothing after death. What I did say is there in an OT reference which shows that, at one stage (up to and including the Sadducees) there were devout Hebrews who believed this life is all. I’ll try to find it for you.

Your version of the desert tribal deity and I disagree on many things.

I disagree even more with the Western Christian version of this Asiatic religion which, really, is irrelevant to us Europeans.

As for the deity changing programs, no. It is the priests who make the changes according to contemporary needs, which is why the Tanach deity has been so inconsistent.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 1:48 AM PDT

Allan says:
Rosita, with the exception of Jesus, you and I have much in common.I go a step further, and say the priests have robbed the scriptures of any true spiritual meaning, and need to read Allfaaraa’s posts more closely as I think we, too, share much.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 5:45 AM PDT

Allan says:
Bryan, I, too, have been rapped over the knuckles by She Who Must Be Obeyed (the Great Amazon Censor). Can’t imagine you committing any grievous sin; maybe we need to ask Her for clearer guidelines.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 7:20 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Usually amazon barfs on the occasional link I provide like for instance it thnks tri-pods is a dirty word. I don’t know maybe those amazon censors know something about sexual acts using tri-pods I’m not aware of…..



Posted on
June 15, 2009 7:24 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Stratford -If your asking is there a text concerning the Spirit Guardians, no, not that I’m aware of. Although there is knowledge out there about some of them at least.




Posted on
June 15, 2009 7:27 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
No such animal as spirit guardians in the Scripture.

We who are believers have the Spirit of God resident within us, and angels are not operating in this present age of GRACE. They are observing.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 8:03 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 8:18 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Well the ones before God’s throne are observing, the rest have places to go and things to do.



Posted on
June 15, 2009 8:37 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
According to scripture, Bryan, those things they do and places they go are governed by God Himself, and HE says they aren’t ministering to the church which is His Body today. He takes that responsibility upon Himself, personally.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 9:23 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
He says he does everything personally……..And would you please hurry yourself along because your tiring him out……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:07 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
We who are believers have the Spirit of God resident within us,Obviously.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:13 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 3:24 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEE

Just read some of your posts, A few comments, mabey questions,even answers and of course a dissagreementor two. LOL

You address AKHENATEN post about the OT ,Tanach You said>GOD didnt leave US WE left him

YOU Said.SARAH doesnt understand

Im sorry LEE we are taking about the OT the TANACH You say :US:, Lee are you of ISRAEL? Are you Jewish?

Freeman sounds Jewish but you are Christian, no?

As a Gentile/Heathen YOU never had GOD so you could not LEAVE HIM

ISRAEL never left GOD! and GOD can never leave ISRAEL,

It is a GODLY impossibility!

He (GOD) is The GOD of ISRAEL, Why do you think that is ?

Next what do you think that means?

The Origional SIN stuff you are bringing forth is Christianity not JUDASIM..Lee you say The OT and the NT are one seamless GARMENT as taught by Christianity

Lee You are smarter than to Believe That??

Christianity is FORCED to verify Itself through the OT,Your LORD, is the son of the GOD OF ISRAEL, BTW do you understand This next Verse No its not a Metaphor

LK2;32 A light to lighten the gentiles, and THE GLORY of your people ISRAEL, …This is not a Metaphor which is what most Christians claim when they dont have the spiritual capacity to understand

Jesus is the Glory of ISRAEL, there Divine gain, the culmination of all of there Treasures, Their Fruit,WORKS, Spiritual Wealth

Not all Jews agree on this

You said Jesus fullfilled what Israel was incapable of doing

Im sorry LEE but it was never ISRAELS TASK to do anything more important than to create the MASHIAC when MASHIAC was created Israels task was Fullfilled , JESUS whom you claim Really didnt have/wantAnything to do with YOU ,You were Heathens dogs if you will,He was only sent to the Lost SHeep of ISRAEL

In fact JESUS actually saved only 11 JEWS, They he empowered to go unto the Heathens/Gentiles

Lee salvation is OF THE JEWS because They created Mashiac, and HE is their GLORY,( there Wealth) That is why in order to save HIMSELF he had to SAVE THEM, GOD LIVED and WALKED IN THEM

But you can only SAVE that which had WORKS a SOUL That is why at that point the Gentiles were disregarded,they had nothing to SAVE.Jesus is the GLORY of ISRAEL as scripture verifys in other WORDS let me throw a wrench in your Christianity

JESUS and ISRAEL are one and the SAME,

The famous verse Mat2;15 Out of EGYPT have I called my SON

Is actually Pirated from the OT than TWISTED and Shortened to MISLEAD all you Mainstream Christians

the Verse comes from the OT HOSEA 11;1 When ISRAEL was a child I loved HIM and out of Egypt I called my SON,

Gods son is ISRAEL Not JESUS .. OT .Scripture is CLEAR,So either The Writers of MATTHEW are attempting to Decieve YOU by Editing Scripture, in a self sustaining way, OR

There is more than is written, and JESUS and ISRAEL are one and the SAME???

JUST as GOD and ISRAEL are one and the SAME, And as CHristians say ,JESUS and GOD are one and the SAME

As GOD is The GOD of ISRAEL, and JESUS is the GLORY of ISRAEL, (scripture verifys both)

Than ISRAEL Fullfilled and You are WRONG Saying ,JESUS fullfilled what ISRAEL was Incapable of DOING

It was not ISRAELS task to LIGHTEN the GENTILES

It was the task of THEIR Mashiac JESUS whom is their GLORY Whom YOU claim as Your LORD You as Christians have no UNDERSTANDING of ISRAEL what it , IS, WAS, and SHALL BE (Or you do and thats why YOU HATE)You have no understanding HOW?WHY? GOD became and is the GOD OF ISRAEL

You have no understanding WHY the prayer OUR FATHER is only to THE JEWSGOD is there FATHER, but only YOURE GOD,They (Israel) are of BLOOD Origional SONS, You as Christians are Adopted Sons THROUGHJESUS, unto GODGOD Lives IN Them (Israel)and DWELLS IN them as scripture says There TREASURE (Israels) Is what makes HIM THEIR GOD, and they, HIS SON ,ISRAEL Collectively

As to reading CHristian Books LEEChristian BOOKS Further INtellectual Christianity They dont FURTHER GOD. The BIBLE DOES and THIS is GODS PURPOSE for YOU, To Further HIM, Increase HIM or GLORIFY HIM if you will…Mainstream Christianity is AS the BLIND leading the BLIND and all of YOU are Falling into the PIT!

Wake UP open your EYES and SEE the TRUTH

Your Churches Cement in your Conciousness the REDUCTION of the WORD of GOD that Exists in the BIBLE

they(writers) go to REASON and Rationality catering to your Spirit /EGO .. All of GODS TRUTH you reduce to Metaphor

GOD is SPIRIT His words are SPIRIT You must Worship HIM in SPIRIT

As Paul says Whom I serve with my SPIRIT , GOD does not need INTELLECT ,SCHOLARLY works,

Nor youre

Moth eaten TREASURES, It is youre SPIRIT given to you for PROFIT, To increase This is TRUE CHRISTIANITY This is what GOD seeks, Ok Lee I do agree with you on you said The Jews of the OT wouldnt recognize modern Rabbinic Judasim yaada yaada

You got that right..My whole POINT LEE is GOD nor JESUS did not Create these RELIGIONS, MAN DID

GOD did give US HIS word But not the UNDERSTANDING of said Word

It is the SPIRITUALITY that is lacking from Christianity,That CHURCH TAUGHT Traditions implemented some 1500 years agoHave reduced the SPIRITUAL Level of the AVERAGE CHRISTIAN and keep them GOD IGNORANTThey have become WELLS WITHOUT WATER>>>>>Peace

ALLFAARAA



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:16 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Christine D ANGEL

YOU said ANGELS are not operating in this present age of GRACE

Then HOW is it YOU are HERE?

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:17 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
As a Gentile/Heathen YOU never had GOD so you could not LEAVE HIM

He had God. I already proclaimed the One to be the God of all 3500 years ago.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:17 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I probably shouldn’t tell her that some angels use us as the butt end of jokes…..and some others think we make good pets……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:19 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
She’s not enlightened yet…..And to be technically correct we’re angels in training……however she won’t agree……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:24 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Christine D ANGEL

YOU said ANGELS are not operating in this present age of GRACE

Then HOW is it YOU are HERE?

I thought the same. The radiant glow from within is merely God indwelling in her. As full and bright as I am, this light is not my own

A million light reflections pass over me’

It’s source is bright and endless.She resuscitates the hopeless

Without her we are lifeless satellites drifting.

Ya know?



Posted on
June 15, 2009 11:29 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Here from the king’s mountain view Here from the wild dream come true Feast like a sultan I do on treasures and flesh – never fewBut I, I would wish it all away if I thought I’d lose you, just one day The devil and his had me down in love with the dark side I’d found, dabbling all the way down; up to my neck, soon to drownBut you changed that all for me; lifted me up, turned me ’roundSo I…I… I… I… I would I would I would wish this all away Prayed like a martyr dusk ’til dawnBegged like a hooker all night longTempted the devil with my songAnd got what I wanted all alongBut I… And I wouldIf I could, then I would wish it away, wish it away, wish it all awayWanna wish it all awayNo pressure could hold, sway, or justify my giving away my center So if I could I’d wish it all away, if I thought tomorrow would take you awayYou’re my peace of mind, my home, my centerI’m just trying to hold on one more day Damn my eyes…Damn my eyes…Damn my eyes if they should compromise our fulcrumIf wants and needs divide me then I might as well be goneShine on foreverShine on, benevolent sun Shine down upon the brokenShine until the two become one Shine on forever Shine on, benevolent son Shine on upon the severedShine until the two become oneDivided, I wither awayDivided, I wither away Shine down upon the manyLight our way, benevolent sonBreathe in unionBreathe in union Breathe in union Breathe in union Breathe in union So, as one, survive another day and seasonSilence legion, save your poisonSilence legion, stay out of my way!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:36 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
love I get so lost, sometimesdays pass and this emptiness fills my heartwhen I want to run awayI drive off in my carbut whichever way I goI come back to the place you areall my instincts, they returnand the grand facade, so soon will burnwithout a noise, without my prideI reach out from the insidein your eyesthe light the heatin your eyesI am completein your eyesI see the doorway to a thousand churchesin your eyesthe resolution of all the fruitless searchesin your eyesI see the light and the heatin your eyesoh, I want to be that completeI want to touch the lightthe heat I see in your eyeslove, I don’t like to see so much painso much wasted and this moment keeps slipping awayI get so tired of working so hard for our survivalI look to the time with you to keep me awake and aliveand all my instincts, they returnand the grand facade, so soon will burnwithout a noise, without my prideI reach out from the insidein your eyesthe light the heatin your eyesI am completein your eyesI see the doorway to a thousand churchesin your eyesthe resolution of all the fruitless searchesin your eyesI see the light and the heatin your eyesoh, I want to be that completeI want to touch the light,the heat I see in your eyesin your eyes in your eyesin your eyes in your eyesin your eyes in your eyes



Posted on
June 15, 2009 11:39 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Something is happeningEverything’s different but everything is fine yeahThis is the good stuffYesterday’s only what you leave behindIt’s only in your mindYou gotta talk to the One who made youTalk to the One who understandsTalk to the One who gave youAll the light in your eyesAll the light in your eyesNo use pretendingYou never existed until you saw the light yeahYou’re just beginningYou haven’t missed it-it’s all ahead of you And you know what to doYou gotta talk to the One who made youTalk to the One who understandsTalk to the One who gave youAll the light in your eyesAll the light in your eyesHere comes the world and she is beautifully mysteriousShe’s got it all and you say Give it to meNobody’s happyThat’s not the world I know insideWhere everybody hidesYou gotta talk to the One who made youTalk to the One who understandsTalk to the One who gave youAll the light in your eyesAll the light in your eyesYou gotta talk to the One who loves youTalk to the One who understandsTalk to the One who gave youAll the light in your eyesAll the light in your eyesYeah, thank you thank you!Yeah, everything great and smallYeah, thank you thank youFor the light in your eyesFor the light in your eyesYeah, thank you thank you!Yeah, everything great and smallYeah, thank you thank youFor the light in your eyesFor the light in your eyes



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:54 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
AKH Funny, Hey from where is that poem you posted a couple of hours ago? The Kings mountain viewThat is some spiritual truth.. Feast like a sultan on treasures and flesh, Who done that?Akh how did you get away with or mabey it went over their heads when you saidsomething about knowing Christ face to face, im parphrasingI kept waiting for the onslaught which never came,Iwas waiting for your repost to the onslaught but alas..

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:55 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
AKH

Sorry I forgot the GOD you proclaimed 3500 years ago

You are correct

Alf



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:57 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

Angels in training,Thats good, I just raised your level up three notches from where I though it was,and I thought it was high!

Hope that doesnt sound wrong..

Allfaaraa



Posted on
June 15, 2009 12:01 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
AKH Funny, Hey from where is that poem you posted a couple of hours ago? The Kings mountain viewThat is some spiritual truth.. Feast like a sultan on treasures and flesh, Who done that?It’s a song Jambi – Tool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKol1scXGGQI was so there!

As for why they ignored it. Maybe they thought to deny my experience allowed for their own to be denied. If they missed it I’ll say it again…..I HAVE seen Yeshua. I have seen Christ. I have even seen Melchizedek, They are NOT one in the same.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:03 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
He got lucky, I went further talking to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:04 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 12:05 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I left most of me at home this lifetime….though that’s supposed to be slowly changing……Btw, the angels in training was from a book my daughter was led to some years ago for both of us.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:06 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Yeap, Christ is more into saving humanity, Melchizedek’s a little more in saving God’s creation from humanity…….LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:28 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
AKH

Thats too funny, so his name really was YESHUA?

BRYAN It is clear YOU understand, most of you at HOME Actually YOU KNOW the TRUTH

Like seeks LIKE

Alfaaraa Antara Amaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:32 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Hey, even Christine says that’s home…….



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:36 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Y’shua



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:37 PM PDT

FashionSense says:
Christine D. Angel

Angels are always operating and doing the will of God. When we pray they are always dispatched to do spiritual warfare with the enemy. They minister when someone like Betty Malz has had a near death experience and goes to heaven while she was on the operating table and says that her two angels escorted alongside either side of her while she walked to heaven and back.

Some years ago a friend of mine who was able to see within the spiritual realm was able to see two angels who were standing by me. God once spoke to me and said that if I ever had trouble with a car coming towards me he would have my angels swerve the car wheel to avoid any collision. Angels are always ministering to people. These are some of the things that God created them for. They are always doing spiritual battle against Satan and his dark angels 24/7.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:38 PM PDT

FashionSense says:
AkhenatenBless you!!!!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 12:56 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

As to GODS throne and the Angels, if you read it real carefully, in presence

You will find that Both the Angels and those in White are both occupying theSAME SPACE,

The verses separate and than UNIFY the Angels and the SOULS of those

Yaada yaada HMMMMM??

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 1:31 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 1:32 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
These 24 from Revelations:

Whoa, let the sun beat down upon my face And stars to fill my dream I am a traveler of both time and space To be where I have been To sit with elders of the gentle race

This world has seldom seen They talk of days for which they sit and wait All will be revealed Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace Whose sounds caress my ear But not a word I heard could I relate The story was quite clear



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 1:45 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

The first line is from a song I seem to recall,

Let the sun beat down upon my face

Is the rest the same song or what is it?

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 2:03 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
What did I do?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 2:08 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Kashmir – Led Zeppelin Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealedTalk and song from tongues of lilting grace, whose sounds caress my ear

But not a word I heard could I relate, the story was quite clear

Oh, OhOh, OhOo, Baby, I’ve been flying… oo yeah, mama, there ain’t no denyin’ Oh, oo yeah, I’ve been flying, mama, ain’t no denyin’, no denyin’ Oh, all I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground And my eyes fill with sand, as I scan this wasted land Trying to find, trying to find where I’ve been. Oh pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place, yellow desert stream My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon, I will return again Sure as the dust that floats high in June, when movin’ through Kashmir. Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails, across the sea of years With no provision but an open face, along the straits of fear Ohh. Oh, oh.When I’m on, when I’m on my way, yeah When I see, when I see the way, you stay-yeah Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, when I’m down… Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well I’m down, so down Ooh, my baby, oooh, my baby, let me take you there Oh, come on, come on

Let me take you there. Let me take you there



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 2:11 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 2:12 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Akh

What did I do?

You walked with JESUS!

Kashmir thats it



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 2:38 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 2:40 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
the same song, but the elders in the song are the 24 before God’s Throne in Revelations. Kashmir was a special city in the last world and known by other names before that. And by other names yet to come.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 2:43 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Eh, a lot of people did. Soooo…any guesses as to the eternal no voter is? I’m gonna go with Christine. Often I will get a no right when she replies to me……coincidence?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 3:10 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
well you have a chance this time around…….



Posted on
June 15, 2009 5:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 15, 2009 5:12 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya everyone – just thought l’d pop back for a wee look!

Lots of comments but have you all noticed the amount of insults flying??

Everyone has an ego which has good and negative affects. If l see myself as being Laura, that is my ego talking. It is not all negative inputs and doesn’t just mean big headed as normally used.

Angels/guardiens are guiding us – or trying to but we have to ask for thier assistance. They wait to be asked apparently and cannot intervine until we do. All to do with our spiritual development – which l believe is why we are here.

Meditation and other spiritual practices help this communication flow of course. We are our own worst enemies and are very capable of making our own hell on earth. Self awareness should be the learnt in everyday life – should it not? What you say and do – makes a difference to the world does it not?

Listening to ourselves is the greatest gift – but this too is a continual multi-layered learning skill. You know when you are having a meeting with a higher self, angel, guardian, or passed over friend or family member -because the unconditional love is experienced on a very personal level…..and is like speaking with your God, because you are!

p.s nearly forgot check out http://www.adishakti.org/reincarnation_in_early_christianity.htm

It’s only 3 pages long too!



Posted on
June 15, 2009 5:29 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Aye, yai

yaye…the new agers are running amok in here. Wheres the bug spray….just kidding just kidding, ya’ll



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 9:54 PM PDT

Allan says:
So you, too, have a soulmate, Bryan?



Posted on
June 15, 2009 10:09 PM PDT

Allan says:
Christine: … but if facts don’t back it up, my beliefs are nothing more than pie in the sky and flimsy fantasy.

Allan: precisely.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 10:21 PM PDT

Allan says:
My Original Sin was when I attempted to post the book title The Golden Ahhh, er, um, Equus. Since I am not totally au fait with US slang, you can imagine how long it took me to work that one out, Bryan. SWMBO really had me going on that one, wasted hours trying to figure it.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:14 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Depending on how you want to define soulmate yes. In the sense that for me soulmates are either ones I’ve meet in previous lives or ones who arranged to be (but not necessarily all made it) in this life.

Also a Partner. A partner being your other half.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 15, 2009 11:16 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Yeah, I have no idea what I did this time, or the last time, LOL.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 12:36 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine..liked your last comment, it was really funny and made me laugh.I’m not saying this is the only way, just my personal experience of spirituality. There are plenty of other ways to connect to your spirituality -through christianity or any other form of religion, through nature etc.etc. Any way you try to get there is fine by God l’m sure!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 12:58 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 2:26 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
It is, they are all different stages of the same journey…..

The way it was put to me was we’re on a marathon race, a beginning and an end, everybody travels at their own speed and in their own footsteps.



Posted on
June 16, 2009 1:00 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Dear Dear Laura,

You could not be MORE wrong, dear lady. All roads do NOT lead to the same place.

God provided ONE way to be reconciled to Him, and YES, you DO need reconciling or He would NOT have left all of heaven to come to earth and be spit upon, rejected and nailed to a Cross for YOUR sin debt.

Your personal experience will mean NOTHING if you have NOT believed God and what He says He did FOR YOU.

Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

God has always required persons to take Him at His Word. I am telling you this because you don’t seem to know. I hope you will change your mind and believe what God has said in His Word, and left for us to BELIEVE.

Trust me, It is NO laffing matter. You will not be laffing if you continue in this misguided way of thinking, I can assure you. God EXPECTS us to believe what He says. There is NOTHING but dead in your sins without believing what God has said about our sorry condition and what HE did to reconcile us to Himself.

If anyone can come to God any way they choose, then please, tell me what all the hoopla about the Cross is? Did Jesus waste a trip? Should He have stayed in heaven and let us find our own way? He tells us that just wouldn’t have happened. Again, we are back to believing what God tells us is true.

We are not told to try and get there, but to trust in the performance of the ONE who made a way possible for the few who would believe to GET THERE.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 5:45 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine, surley a benevolent God would not punnish anyone for any mistakes we make on this journey? God speaks to individuals does he not? God can also talk through peolpe and there is a multitude of evidence for this. We are all linked spirituality to everything else,as part of God’s beautiful spiritual creations.

Therefore we are all components of the same Source, and God’s power can work through us to help ourselves, others and humanity as a whole. Surley this is uncondtional love. Therefore Faith in humanity is Faith in God.

Do you really believe God punnishes people… when we do a such a wonderful job of this ourselves. Rudolf Steiner or Antrophosopy says that Jesus was a very special spiritaul individual INDEED. He apparently died and this process allowed for the human soul/spirit to develop and transform in a totally new way. This sacrifice was to help humanity and the Earth evolve because of Gods love for all of us, without exceptions.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 7:36 AM PDT

Allan says:
With you, Bryan.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 1:59 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: And actually Christianity has a lot to say about God communion.

IFF: Then why do so few Christians practice esoteric methods of God communion? Most Christians pray, not to experience God, but to obtain something in the world, or some goal or circumstance, that they want. The esoteric dimension to Christ’s teachings are largely forgotten, and daily spiritual practice such as meditation has fallen away from Christian life.

Lee: … Everyone who believes in Christ is called to walk in close, personal communion with him. This is made possible because God puts his own Holy Spirit inside each one of us, thus God IS literally within us, just not in quite the way modern Gnostics mean.

IFF: How do you know God is within — because you read it in a book, or someone told you this? Or have you experienced God within you? If you have experienced God within you, what are the signs or evidence of this? How does the living Spirit manifest within the body of the follower of Christ?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 2:07 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine, sorry re laughing response as you must have misinterpreted it. Should have said smile maybe. Need to be more careful with my wording and spelling! Any written words/phrases are open to misinterpretation, are they not, depending where your coming from?

I like people with a good sense of humour, that was what made me laugh, not anything you said in your response.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 2:28 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 2:29 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Have you read Steiner’s Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, it was one of the things I was led to in regards to meeting the Higher and Lower Guardians?




In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 2:50 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan -yes l have l’m a great fan of his although he is a bit long winded don’t you think? Love his poetry too.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 3:05 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 3:09 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFEELFREE: Lee: And actually Christianity has a lot to say about God communion.IFF: Then why do so few Christians practice esoteric methods of God communion?

LEE: We don’t need them.

IFEELFREE: Most Christians pray, not to experience God, but to obtain something in the world, or some goal or circumstance, that they want. The esoteric dimension to Christ’s teachings are largely forgotten, and daily spiritual practice such as meditation has fallen away from Christian life.

LEE: Some Christians only pray for stuff, but not all. As I said, Christianity does have a vibrant mystic tradition.

IFEELFREE: Lee: … Everyone who believes in Christ is called to walk in close, personal communion with him. This is made possible because God puts his own Holy Spirit inside each one of us, thus God IS literally within us, just not in quite the way modern Gnostics mean.IFF: How do you know God is within — because you read it in a book, or someone told you this? Or have you experienced God within you? If you have experienced God within you, what are the signs or evidence of this? How does the living Spirit manifest within the body of the follower of Christ?

LEE: Both because the book tells me the Spirit is within me, AND because I felt the Spirit at work in me. Book and feelings, objective and subjective, work in harmony. The rational side of Christianity anchors us in the what is objectively true about God and our faith, so that, anything we experience, or think we experience, that expressly contradicts anything written in the book, isn’t genuine. It’s one big reason why the early Christians rejected Gnosticism-because Gnosticism proclaimed a different Jesus than the one proclaimed by the Church. The Gnostic Jesus wasn’t real in the sense of being bodily present, and active in the world-the ancient Gnostic Jesus wanted his few englightened initiates to flee the world. The Christian Jesus thought the world was created good, was made corrupt through the fall, but will be redeemed by the Messiah. Christianity teaches the goodness and redemption of the whole universe, not just a subjective, experiential god’s being concerned with each person’s subjective inward spiritual quest to discover who I really am. Jesus already affirmed who we really are and did something positive about it.As for how the Spirit operates in and through the believer, Paul addresses the normal operation of the Spirit in Romans 8:15-16; 27:For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. . . . In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

And Galatians 5:22-26:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.But many Christians also claim to receive charisms or gifts from the Spirit, that allow them to heal, to speak in unknown or foreign languages, prophesy, etc. Many in the NT received such gifts. But not all denominations of Christians emphasize these kinds of gifts, while nearly alll do the former, from Romans 8 and Galatians 5.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 3:14 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

My question is what are the signs or evidence of the Holy Spirit within you that you have experienced? Do you personally experience love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? Have you crucified your sinful nature, and does this mean you are free of passions and desires?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 3:29 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 3:31 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFEELFREE: Lee,My question is what are the signs or evidence of the Holy Spirit within you that you have experienced? Do you personally experience love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? Have you crucified your sinful nature, and does this mean you are free of passions and desires?

LEE: The Holy Spirit has in fact, made me more patient, more open-minded and less judgmental. As for my crucifying my sinful nature, that was, in one sense, achieved when I was baptized (see Romans 6); I died to sin. On another, purely practical level, its a daily struggle, as I, like every other Christian, still sin. I’m not controlled by it, though. Sanctification, being made more and more like Christ through the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, is a lifetime process, not a one-off event.See, Paul’s point is that Christians are to be guided by the Holy Spirit, not by our fallen sinful passsions and desires. For example, we’re to be guided by the Spirit, not by our lust for sex, power, or money. Being guided by the Spirit doesn’t necessarily entail miraculous healings, prophecies or mystical visions or feelings, though it can. According to Christianity, the Spirit’s personally inside a Christian whether that person feels anything special or unusual or not. As I said, most ordinary Christians go through their whole lives without having one mystical vision or uttering one mystical prophecy.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 3:50 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Lee/Pax Yes all ego removed while experiencing spiritaul contact and are filled with and flowing out love and understanding. Experiences vary in length but stay with you long afterwards. Glimpses of the spiritual world and the love they experience -which way outshines our understanding of love in our human capacity.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 4:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 4:24 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAUARA STANTON: Lee/Pax Yes all ego removed while experiencing spiritaul contact and are filled with and flowing out love and understanding. Experiences vary in length but stay with you long afterwards. Glimpses of the spiritual world and the love they experience -which way outshines our understanding of love in our human capacity.

LEE: How can we be sure our experiences are genuine? Experience is subjective. My experience of a building may be totally different from yours, but that doesn’t negate the objective fact that said building has four walls and a roof. As a Christian, my experiences must be grounded in the objective criteria of who God is and what Jesus did. Jesus deals with each person individually in a subjective way, but only after they’ve accepted certain objective facts and believed certain objective teachings.And BTW, pax is the Latin word for peace.Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 4:46 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEE

You said GOD puts his own Holy Spirit in US>>> BUT WHY??

Well LEE, I believe scholarly,intellectually,and spiritually I think I can AGREE with YOU. as to that!

Lee in reading your words you are very Scholarly,You said you feel the Spirit at work in YOU

Lee that is the FIRST step from, FEELING ,comes Knowing ,CONCIOUS AWARNESS of SPIRITall of the TIME True CHRIST CONCIOUSNESS The GIFTS you are talking about are all GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT and as the MEASURE of the HOLY SPIRIT VARIESfrom Individual to INDIVIDUAL so does said GIFT VARY within the INDIVIDUAL

As the SPIRIT is GIVEN for PROFIT, Increase of said SPIRIT is ones WORK or ASSIGNMENTand as CHRISTIANS this is how we GLORIFY GOD through JESUS

Which is our TASK…

LEE do you agree or disagree or what??

Peace Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 5:01 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

At present, your experience of the Holy Spirit appears incomplete. I don’t doubt that you are sincerely committed to your spiritual path, and you have no doubt made some progress with respect to aligning your lifestyle in a more disciplined and life-supporting direction. This is a necessary step in the beginning stages of spiritual life. However, the real leap involved in transitioning to a truly religious life is one that few ever make. It is the breakthrough to a spiritually-illumined life of Divine contemplation and selfless service. Such a life becomes possible on the basis of a heart-awakening to the Divine such that the common human goals – to be fulfilled through bodily and mental pleasures – lose their force.The purpose of existence for one established in religious or spiritual life is devotion — a moment-to-moment heart-intimacy with the spiritual reality. That intimacy is tangible and ecstatic, and it changes one’s sense of reality. Everything that occurs is now realized to be a process full of spirit-presence — the Holy Spirit. This new vision of existence is given through spirit-baptism, an infilling of spirit-power described in many different religious and spiritual traditions. The source of spirit-baptism is almost always a spiritually awakened master (either in this life or a past life), such as Jesus. My own experience of awakening of Spirit has been via Yogic practices and personal contact with a spiritual master, the result of which has been the awakening of spirit-current bodily as the life-energy or kundalini, and states of ecstatic absorption in the Holy Spirit. I feel that many Christians stress Bible study and good works, while often neglecting spiritual practice, and so miss out on the direct experience of the Holy Spirit as a purifying and spiritualizing force or spirit-current which brings forth signs of bliss, peace, and universal love.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 5:03 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Laura,

Your experiences sounds quite genuine. Do they come spontaneously, or do you practice some form of deep prayer or meditation?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 5:13 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 5:16 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hi, IFeelFree,

You said: I feel that many Christians stress Bible study and good works, while often neglecting spiritual practice, and so miss out on the direct experience of the Holy Spirit as a purifying and spiritualizing force or spirit-current which brings forth signs of bliss, peace, and universal love.

Me: Most Christians generally don’t meditate in this manner because we have been taught that this type of meditation was born in Eastern mysticism/religions, and we are forbidden to deal with anything that doesn’t seem Christian. We are also taught that this type of meditation opens us to receive demons, we are taught to invalidate such experiences.

When we let others form our own opinions, we miss on so much that God wants for us. These are things that (I believe) stop us from further spiritual maturity. We believe everyone’s negative opinions, but we don’t seek on our own to discover if these opinions are true or not. We want to tell the Holy Spirit what method It should use to work upon us and speak to us, but we don’t allow the Holy Spirit to choose how to do so, since God is the one who created us and knows what will work for us. We have boxed God in this tiny little cube and believe He only has one way of doing things.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 5:28 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFEELFREE, I’m not sure your view of the spiritual/divine is compatible with mine

Mine is a Christian view. Christianity knows nothing of ascended masters, gurus, reincarnation/past lives, yoga and the like.

My problem with many esoteric traditions is that all the focus seems to be on me and mine, rather than God and my neighbor. And everything is subjective, truth is whatever I want it to be, rather than an objective standard that exists outside of me.

Christianity teaches that the world was created good, but was put into bondage via the fall. As a result, humans experience physical death and spiritual death. Jesus’ sacrifice reverses that process, so that those who belong to Christ will be bodily resurrected to unending life in a paradise world.

Christianity’s focus is much less upon what I must do to achieve enlightenment, oneness, or communion with the Divine, and much more upon what God has already done through Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection, and in gifting me with his Holy Spirit.According to Christianity, one of the most important spiritual practices IS doing good works, because it gets us out of ourselves, takes the focus off us, and puts it onto others, and in so doing, proclaims our faith visibly.

I find when I’m too focused upon me that things grind to a halt, but when I start thinking about God and my neighbor, everything hums along nicely.

Maybe more later.

Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 6:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 6:23 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: IFEELFREE, I’m not sure your view of the spiritual/divine is compatible with mine Mine is a Christian view. Christianity knows nothing of ascended masters, gurus, reincarnation/past lives, yoga and the like.IFF: The incompatibility you sense is not fundamental, because Jesus was an ascended master, a guru (he had disciples), and taught esoteric or yogic methods of God communion, as evidenced by many passages in the Bible and elsewhere (such as the Nag Hammadi library). There is even evidence that Jesus may have traveled in the East during his lost years and so may have become acquainted with Eastern wisdom teachings. Lee: My problem with many esoteric traditions is that all the focus seems to be on me and mine, rather than God and my neighbor. And everything is subjective, truth is whatever I want it to be, rather than an objective standard that exists outside of me.

IFF: Focusing on me is necessary with regard to self-discipline, spiritual transformation, and personal experience of the Divine. This is distinct from focusing on selfish needs, indulging in bodily/mental pleasures, or vainly seeking some kind of egoic fulfillment. Spirituality is based on inherently subjective states which may nevertheless produce objective changes. However, if you’re looking for objective standards, try science.

Lee: Christianity teaches that the world was created good, but was put into bondage via the fall. As a result, humans experience physical death and spiritual death. Jesus’ sacrifice reverses that process, so that those who belong to Christ will be bodily resurrected to unending life in a paradise world.

IFF: What we now know as Christianity likely contains many misunderstandings and distortions of Christ’s teachings. All religious and spiritual traditions become corrupted over time, and so enlightened spiritual teachers — true emissaries of God — appear in every age to restore the truth in a form that is suitable for the prevailing culture and world consciousness. The best way to develop a more correct understanding of Christ’s teachings is to develop one’s own spiritual intuition through spiritual practice, disciplined living, and becoming exposed to perspectives from different spiritual traditions and cultures. However, it is true that through deep devotion and surrender to Christ, one may attain spiritual awakening or salvation.

Lee: Christianity’s focus is much less upon what I must do to achieve enlightenment, oneness, or communion with the Divine, and much more upon what God has already done through Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection, and in gifting me with his Holy Spirit.

IFF: Christianity was adapted to the masses by making fewer demands upon the individual, so that it is more palatable to the majority people who are not disposed to make serious personal or moral sacrifices. One of the ways this was done was by stressing the idea of vicarious or substitutional sacrifice — that Jesus’ murder atoned for humanity’s sins and little is required of us except to accept his sacrifice, and perhaps make some effort at avoiding sin. In truth, we must be willing to make the same sacrifice as Jesus — not his death on the cross, but the total bodily sacrifice of all that is oneself, and all that one possesses, into forms of loving and compassionate participation with others, and into the absolute mystery of the Divine reality in which we all arise and change and ultimately disappear.

Lee: According to Christianity, one of the most important spiritual practices IS doing good works, because it gets us out of ourselves, takes the focus off us, and puts it onto others, and in so doing, proclaims our faith visibly.

IFF: Good works, or selfless service, is a vital component of religious life. However, to become really capable of selfless action, one must commune with the source of universal love that is the Holy Spirit. This does indeed take the focus off us.

Lee: I find when I’m too focused upon me that things grind to a halt, but when I start thinking about God and my neighbor, everything hums along nicely.

IFF: Even better is to feel God’s presence while engaged in activity, and to see the good will of others as the expression of God’s love to us.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 11:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 16, 2009 11:24 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I’ve just read that particular work. Definitely long winded, the concepts could be knocked down to about a paragraph, maybe 2. I think I could do it in about 4 sentences.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 11:10 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually those aren’t gifts of the Holy spirit, but gifts from other angels.

Although some healing ability is built-in. Just a matter of turning it ‘on’.Also most of the other abilities aren’t exactly the fruit of the Spirit, but the fruit of other angels (patience, kindness, love, etc…).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 11:14 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Only you can decide whether your experiences are real in the end. Someone else ho’s gone through them might be able to help validate, but the same exact ‘state’ experienced by one person, can be experienced by another as something completely different.

I can give you some books on those from Sufism (though the states are common to other religions too).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 16, 2009 11:22 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
You live in a mutual reality co-created by all of us. Outside this plane of existence, there is no consensual reality as we understand it. Reality there is whatever you make it to be.

As for the ‘me’/’mine’ thing, it better be, LOL, otherwise you’re not doing what Jesus said. Removing the log from your own eye.

You need to fix yourself before you can ‘help’ others.

And Christianity does know of ‘ascended masters’, reincarnation and the like, or rather it did, till it got corrupted.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 7:03 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee,

Yes your are right of course, but the isn’t every experience we ever encounter subjective? Our attitudes, beliefs, hopes and dreams, the people within our life, our work, rest and play, the food we choose to eat, where we live and things in life we enjoy doing, the books and films we read/watch, our relationships?Having a Spiritual experiences however can alter your viewpoint and attitude to self and others if you are willing to do so…and is based on your own personal beliefs and life experiences. Are we willing to allter what we think and how we feel about things? Are we willing to see other people’s viewpoints? Is there another way of looking at life from a different angle or a wider broader concept? If we have ‘free will’ it comes down to a personal choice. These choices could be seen as a spiritual challenges or awakening calls. It is not easy for anyone to alter their behaviours, responses, human nature, feelings. If one can step back as if one is watching a show on stage with yourself preforming and interacting with other players. Why do we behave the way we do? Why do we believe what we believe? These things only the individual can answer, and some are hidden in the subconscious making it even harder to understand yourself… yet again another challenge. To truely know yourself is a hard task and a continual lifetime process. Many Eastern religions say, you can experience the world and others from learning from yourself…this because we are all as one. No one religion has all the answers but plenty offer guidance if we care to look. And many religions contain similar themes attained from different angles, practices, or spiritaul laws and Christianity is most certainly included.



Posted on
June 17, 2009 7:15 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Gods’ viewpoint is the one to which we must adjust our thinking, since His is the Only One that counts.

Why would God go to such great lengths to determine ONE way by which ALL could be reconciled to Him, if ALL roads lead to the same place?

NO NO, Laura…truth is not based on ones experience, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.God never called anyone to a religiion or to an experience. He calls us to Himself and there is but ONE way to KNOW HIM…thru the Crosswork of Christ.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 7:19 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Originally as buddha taught it, enlightment meant knowing oneself.And yes it’s a hard task, and a never ending task, because you change moment to moment. So you have to keep on, keeping on, LOL……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 7:20 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Yes re Steiner information Bryan. They do say all spiritual truths are very simple and short!

Sorry don’t understand your self/mine comment… lack of Bible reading l’m afraid, but only because l don’t like the idea of a vengeful God! What does removing the log from my your own eye refer to? Thinking it means running before l can walk or seeing what l don’t understand… and there is some truth in that of course!! Actually think it was Higher self influence, angel influences, and family guidances l’ve experienced before…. and they are closer to God than me of course. Laura x



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 7:22 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
God said he created diversity to experience the diverse, why would he make only one road for everything to follow, that would completely negate what he desired (admittedly it would make the job easier).

Although admittedly there is only one way to know him, and that is through knowing yourself.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 7:27 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
The me.mine whatever thing.

Jesus said you need to remove the log from your own eye before you can remove the splinter from your neighbors eye.

On one level this is a parable against being a hypocrite. On another level it says you need to perfect yourself before you can judge others. Otherwise your own blindness will cause you to judge yourself.

Which comes to binging up something else I’ve seen happen.

We mirror back to those trying to judge us, so that in fact they judge themselves.

It’s rather amusing.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 7:35 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFeelFree.

Used to be from meditations whilst sitting, then moved on to walking one’s. Happen spontaneously now sometimes, and often when l ask for spiritaul assistance in my head and am seeking some kind of answer to a life situation that l am having problems coping with. More like angelic help rather than God l’d have to say.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 8:11 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan, Well if we can’t laugh at ourself as the saying goes.

I’m far from perfect but will keep on, keeping on!

I do try hard not to judge others because l know it will be bounced right back at me somehow as yet another lesson l need to learn. Same goes for any other emotion of course. What we emotionally express outwards could be seen as various descriptions of anger, joy, concerns, grief and sadness or fears – according to Chinese Five Elements. What we give out will be returned to us in some form by the world. We are putting this energy out there so will be manifested back to us. This is why we need to watch our own behaviours and thoughts and attitudes and try to be more understanding of other people and their behaviours.

Could have said all that in a sentence….and you’ve already said it! We are not judging others when we are unhappy with others – we are judging ourself, which can be observed as our own weaknesses. Keeping on, keeping on here!



Posted on
June 17, 2009 11:40 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 11:55 AM PDT

FashionSense says:
Akhenaten

It was my feeble attempt at making a joke when you responded to someone’s post with Y’shua I said bless you, as in if someone sneezes and someone responds with bless you.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 11:57 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Once you said it was a joke I got it….actually funny. I’m impressed. Good on ‘ya



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 2:22 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFeelFree,

Yes l can agree with all your last comments. Holy Spirit l tend to call the Source, but can be viewed as God, Budda etc, etc. as the aims are the same are they not? To awaken to our own spirituality + potential and become willing to change from the inside out. Is this what you mean?



Posted on
June 17, 2009 2:34 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Where IS that danged ole new age spray when ya need it???



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 2:39 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
In reply to Lee and IFF conversation. All good stuff. We have to question ourself and behaviour first. It appears to be a necessary process. Relying on God alone or any other spiritual being removes our own control and the spiritual links we all possess. We could be seen to be in our comfort zone perhaps? Seems to be to understanding yourself first allows you to understand others much better and you can then notice little miracles that surround us everywhere… just waiting to be noticed. l have learnt much from people l wouldn’t normally expect too!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 2:44 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan , thankyou l would like to look at the Sufism books you were mentioning. If you can supply the references for me that would be good.

Laura.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 3:03 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ALLFAARA: LEEYou said GOD puts his own Holy Spirit in US>>> BUT WHY??Well LEE, I believe scholarly,intellectually,and spiritually I think I can AGREE with YOU. as to that!Lee in reading your words you are very Scholarly,You said you feel the Spirit at work in YOULee that is the FIRST step from, FEELING ,comes Knowing ,CONCIOUS AWARNESS of SPIRITall of the TIME True CHRIST CONCIOUSNESS The GIFTS you are talking about are all GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT and as the MEASURE of the HOLY SPIRIT VARIESfrom Individual to INDIVIDUAL so does said GIFT VARY within the INDIVIDUALAs the SPIRIT is GIVEN for PROFIT, Increase of said SPIRIT is ones WORK or ASSIGNMENTand as CHRISTIANS this is how we GLORIFY GOD through JESUSWhich is our TASK…LEE do you agree or disagree or what??Peace Allfaaraa

LEE: I pretty much agree with what you said, though I’m not sure about the Christ consciousness part-that sounds a bit too New Age-ish to me.

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
June 17, 2009 3:12 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Ewwww….yes way too New Age-ish. But then again it’s only a term. If the Son dwells in you, you will know God, not through your intellect but from the all encompassing Son. Well…that’s the short watered down version at least.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 3:15 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine, and this works for you which is fine. However did God write the bible or was it men with their own agenda to attain, as many sources depict it as being altered at various times in history. And which Bible are you discussing, as there are a variety? Which one is correct then?

There are many ways to attain spiritual meaning to the world. Not everyone is a Christian, so is most of the world wrong then? God is the Supreme Spiritual being is he not? Only one way just doesn’t make sense. God is a part of us…. not apart from us. Hence expereinces explanations. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 3:20 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 6:40 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFEELFREE: Lee: IFEELFREE, I’m not sure your view of the spiritual/divine is compatible with mine Mine is a Christian view. Christianity knows nothing of ascended masters, gurus, reincarnation/past lives, yoga and the like.IFF: The incompatibility you sense is not fundamental, because Jesus was an ascended master, a guru (he had disciples), and taught esoteric or yogic methods of God communion, as evidenced by many passages in the Bible and elsewhere (such as the Nag Hammadi library). There is even evidence that Jesus may have traveled in the East during his lost years and so may have become acquainted with Eastern wisdom teachings.

LEE: As I’ve tried to point out to Akhenaten, these are two completely different Jesuses. The Christian Jesus was Jewish, and claimed, not only to be the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, but God incarnate, who would redeem, not just people from physical aqnd spiritual death, but also the whole created world from its bondage to decay, through his death, burial and resurrection. The Gnostic Jesus, on the other hand, was not Jewish, more resembling a Greco-Roman philosopher spouting pithy sayings and aphorisms, and though divine, was not God, thought the material world was a prison to be escaped, and taught secret knowledge to a select few people who in turn taught it to a select few people. Gnostics were much more eletist and dogmatic. The people who wrote the Nag Hammadi texts were never considered orthodox Christians because their Jesus wasn’t the Palestinian Jewish Jesus.

NT scholar NT Wright succinctly describes the Gnostics:

Central to the Gnostic system, which has many bewildering varieties and many internal contradictions, is the belief that the present world of space, time, and matter is essentially evil, the creation of a secondary deity, and that salvation will consist of escaping from it into a different sphere altogether both here and hereafter. Gnosticism teaches that some humans at least have within them a divine spark which needs to be uncovered or revealed, giving its initiates a secret knowledge, which in Greek is gnosis, hence Gnosticism. This enables the initiate to effect his escape (it’s normally a he) into a spiritual world. This view of creation as evil is echoed in the Nag Hammmadi texts themselves:

The world came about through a mistake. For he who created it wanted to create it imperishable and immortal. He fell short of attaining his desire. For the world was never imperishable, nor, for that matter, was he who made the world. – The Gospel of Philip, 75, ca. AD. 160-300.

[Matter gave birth to] a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from (something) contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in the whole body, That is why I said to you, ‘Be of good courage,’ and if you are discouraged, be encouraged in the presence of different forms of nature. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. – Gospel of Mary 8:2b-11, ca. mid-2nd century AD. Finally, Wright describes the antithesis between Gnosticism, and modern neo-Gnosticism, and Christianity:

Neo-Gnosticism is the philosophy that invites you to search deep inside yourself and discover some exciting things by which you must then live. It is the philosophy which declares that the only real moral imperative is that you should then be true to what you find when you engage in that deep inward search. But this is not a religion of redemption. It is not at all a Jewish vision of the covenant God who sets free the helpless slaves. It appeals, on the contrary, to the pride that says I’m really quite an exciting person deep down, whatever I may look like outwardly – the theme of half the cheap movies and novels in today’s world. It appeals to the stimulus of that ever-deeper navel-gazing (‘finding out who I really am’) which is the subject of a million self-help books, and the home-made validation of a thousand ethical confusions. It corresponds, in other words, to what a great many people in our world want to believe and want to do, rather than to the hard and bracing challenge of the very Jewish gospel of Jesus. It appears to legitimate precisely that sort of religion which a large swathe of America and a fair chunk of Europe yearns for: a free-for-all, do it yourself spirituality, with a strong though ineffective agenda of social protest against the powers that be, and an I’m-OK-you’re-OK attitude on all matters religious and ethical. At least, with one exception: You can have any spirituality you like (Zen, labyrinths, Tai Chi) as long as it isn’t orthodox Christianity.

All of this is why I say, no matter how noble or worthy these Eastern traditions are, and I respect much that they teach, they are at base incomptaible with authentic, orthodox, historic Christianity.

Christianity deals in moral absolutes. Good and Evil aren’t two sides of the same coin, nor are they illusions, less still societal constructs. Jesus died and was bodily resurrected, not to show us how to gaze deeper into ourselves, but to save us from bodily and spiritual death. He wants us to have communion with the creator God YHWH, who is outside us, indeed outside time and space.

I’m sure this probably comes off as dogmatic, exclusivist, and spiritually arrogant, which is not my intention. People just need to understand that we’re talking about two different Jesuses and two different religious traditions.

I’ll try to respond to the rest of your comments later.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 3:37 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Yes Laura, most of the world IS wrong!

God is NOT a part of us UNTIL we acknowledge the ONE way He has made it possible for us to be reconciled to Him.

You are lollygagging around in a false sense of security, young lady…trusting something as fickle as feelings over the Word of the ONE true God who died for you to KNOW Him.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 17, 2009 4:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 17, 2009 4:08 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

Interesting that you spend your entire reply to my post criticizing Gnosticism, even though I never mentioned Gnosticism once in my post. I’m not a follower of Gnosticism. To the extent that Gnosticism is a dualistic philosophy, I don’t even agree with it. However, there are elements of mysticism and esoteric knowledge within Christian Gnosticism that suggest to me that it may contain teachings that are missing from traditional Christianity, and which Jesus must have taught if he was truly a spiritual Adept. However, I’m not interested in defending Gnosticism. Therefore, I will respond to something in your post that I don’t agree with, rather than the straw man of Gnosticism.

Lee: The Christian Jesus was Jewish, and claimed, not only to be the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, but God incarnate, who would redeem, not just people from physical aqnd spiritual death, but also the whole created world from its bondage to decay, through his death, burial and resurrection.

IFF: Jesus was not simply Jewish. He was a world-teacher, and very likely schooled in the Eastern wisdom traditions, such as Vedanta and Buddhism, while traveling in the East during his lost years from ages 14 – 28. (It is not a coincidence that wise men came from the East to honor Jesus’ birth.) Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, in the sense that he was an emissary of God sent at that time and place in the world to bring the timeless God-teaching to the West. As the initiator or baptizer of others, Jesus was also the savior of sinners. As one who enjoyed the ecstasy of union with the Spirit of God, Jesus was the Son of God. But Jesus is primarily to be understood to be the Living Word or Spirit of God personified (or represented by a human adept or agent). As a savior, Christ can be said to save people from suffering and the delusion of separation from God or the Source of Life, but certainly not from physical death. (We all experience the death of the body, no exceptions. That which is born dies. Only that which is unborn — spirit or pure awareness — never dies.) The idea that the martyrdom of Jesus was the literal and final sacrifice of God is a perversion of the Truth. The true sacrifice of Jesus occurred while he was still alive. That sacrifice was of an esoteric spiritual nature, and it is of no inherent value to any other human being, unless that individual will duplicate that same sacrifice in the processes of his own body-mind. Jesus and his disciples preached conversion to the Living God, not to the God of cultic belief or priestly ritualism or vicarious and symbolic blood sacrifices. Everyone must make the true sacrifice of conversion to the Life-Principle. Everyone must be forgiven. Everyone must turn away from sin. Everyone must submit to the living cross, the central nervous system, which obliges all knowledge and all desire to submit to Life. In other words, everyone must enter into heartfelt bodily communion with the Living God.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 12:31 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine,

If we are ALL God’s children what does this imply? Your reasoning is different to mine that’s all. The world could be viewed as a school of learning could it not? God’s influences surround us everywhere incoming from God but also out-going from us perhaps? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 12:36 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFeelFree,

That was a wonderful piece of writting…yet again. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 12:41 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
This series of books (II-V):Sufism II: Fear and Hope, Contraction and Expansion, Gathering and Dispersion, Intoxication and Sobriety, Annihilation and Subsistence

I actually just needed the info from their covers to understand what I’d be going through. although they make an interesting read in how the same thing can be experienced by the same people.

Contraction and Expansion

Gathering and Dispersion

Can be found in Buddhist experiences easily (as well as one of the others, I think Fear/Hope).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 12:49 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Sorta contradicts the Bible…….



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 1:04 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>LEE: As I’ve tried to point out to Akhenaten, these are two completely different Jesuses. The Christian Jesus was Jewish, and claimed, not only to be>the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, but God incarnate, who would redeem, not just people from physical aqnd spiritual death, but also the whole>created world from its bondage to decay, through his death, burial and resurrection. Actually he didn’t, others did.

As for the Gnostics, I understand what they said better than your Wright(?) does and in one sense they are correct. Albiet I’d drop the good/evil thing, and maybe use the words good/bad, if any. One might point out that certain Christians believed the world to be evil too…….The Demi-Urge is the creator of this reality, with the understanding that the Demi-Urge is a term for the Ego.

And not all gnostics believed as Wright claims either.

Plus Jesus was a gnostic.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 2:18 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Thanks Bryan, l will do. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 2:32 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
The good/evil l would perhaps name as positive and negative influences. Both could be seen to be required before seeing the whole picture..light and darkness, Yin and Yang or Heaven and Earth. Sorry that’s just my interpretation of good/evil terminology. Plus haven’t read Wright either so can’t comment on the rest. LS



Posted on
June 18, 2009 6:06 AM PDT

Marilyn Martin says:
There ARE veiled references in the Bible to reincarnation and karma.

1 Timothy 4:82 Corinthians 5:10Malachi 3:16



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 6:19 AM PDT

glenn says:
IFF,what is the evidence supporting your claim that Jesus travelled in the ‘East’?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 7:17 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFEELFREE: Lee,Interesting that you spend your entire reply to my post criticizing Gnosticism, even though I never mentioned Gnosticism once in my post. I’m not a follower of Gnosticism. To the extent that Gnosticism is a dualistic philosophy, I don’t even agree with it. However, there are elements of mysticism and esoteric knowledge within Christian Gnosticism that suggest to me that it may contain teachings that are missing from traditional Christianity, and which Jesus must have taught if he was truly a spiritual Adept. However, I’m not interested in defending Gnosticism. Therefore, I will respond to something in your post that I don’t agree with, rather than the straw man of Gnosticism.

LEE: You mentioned the Nag Hammadi texts so that’s why I brought up Gnosticism. The Nag Hammadi texts are late, dualistic, Gnostic texts that disagree with one another as much as they do with the canonical NT gospels. Their Jesus isn’t the flesh-and-blood Jewish Messiah who wants to save everyone from bodily and spiritual death, as well as the whole world. Their Jesus wants to show a few people enlightened enough to grasp his teaching how to escape the world of matter, which is essentially not a very nice place to be.

IFEELFREE: Lee: The Christian Jesus was Jewish, and claimed, not only to be the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, but God incarnate, who would redeem, not just people from physical aqnd spiritual death, but also the whole created world from its bondage to decay, through his death, burial and resurrection.IFF: Jesus was not simply Jewish. He was a world-teacher, and very likely schooled in the Eastern wisdom traditions, such as Vedanta and Buddhism, while traveling in the East during his lost years from ages 14 – 28. (It is not a coincidence that wise men came from the East to honor Jesus’ birth.) Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, in the sense that he was an emissary of God sent at that time and place in the world to bring the timeless God-teaching to the West. As the initiator or baptizer of others, Jesus was also the savior of sinners. As one who enjoyed the ecstasy of union with the Spirit of God, Jesus was the Son of God. But Jesus is primarily to be understood to be the Living Word or Spirit of God personified (or represented by a human adept or agent). As a savior, Christ can be said to save people from suffering and the delusion of separation from God or the Source of Life, but certainly not from physical death. (We all experience the death of the body, no exceptions. That which is born dies. Only that which is unborn — spirit or pure awareness — never dies.)

IFeelFree, this is still a different Jesus. The New Testament says nothing about the Vedanta or Buddhism. Jesus was Jewish, and claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, not a Tibetan ascended master. WHERE in the NT or anywhere else do you find evidence to paint Jesus as an Eastern sage? I’m familiar with this theory that Jesus traveled to India or somewhere in the East during his lost years, but am not at all persuaded because there’s no historical evidence for it. How’d he get there? Did his parents, devout Jews, embark on some sort of caravan to the East so their son could study Hinduism? Again, such beliefs would’ve been incompatible with Jesus’ 2nd Temple Judaism, as well as with later Christian theology. That certain teachings of Jesus’ on the surface mirror certain Eastern teachings in no way proves that Jesus was an Eastern ascended master or spiritual guru.

Jesus is the preexistent, divine Logos, or Word, of God made flesh. Jesus saved others by coming to earth as a human, allowing himself to be crucified, then being resurrected by God. Jesus didn’t spout esoteric wisdom whereby people could escape this world, save themselves, balance their karma, get rich quick, inherit their own galactic planet, or any of the other carcked ideas people have. The story of Jesus is the very Jewish story of the Covenant God rescuing the slaves, as NT Wright said.

The wise men, or magi, were not Buddhist monks, but were most likely from Persia. They were astrologers of some type. The word Magi is a Latinization of the plural of the Greek word ‘magos’ (����� pl. �����), itself from Old Persian ‘maguŝ’ from the Avestan ‘mo�u.’ The term refers to the priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. As part of their religion, these priests paid particular attention to the stars, and gained an international reputation for astrology, which was at that time highly regarded as a science. The original Greek in Matthew 2 calls the men who came to visit Jesus ‘magoi.’ The text reveals that they had the wealth and knowledge to travel and offer lavish gifts; they also had knowledge about the stars (We have seen his star in the east…). The only other occurrence of the Greek word ‘magos’ is in Acts 13:6, where it is translated magician, meaning one who practices sorcery. The Greek Old Testament has an occurrence of ‘magos’ (Daniel 2:2), and there it also means magician. Fortunately, other ancient literature helps us to understand who the Magi were. From the Jewish historian Josephus, the Greek historian Herodotus, and the writings of Strabo, a clearer picture of the people called the Magi appears. The Magi first appear about the 7th century B.C. in the Median empire (Herodotus I, ci). At the time of the birth of Jesus, the Magi were an ancient priestly caste dwelling within the Parthian empire, a large area to the east of the eastern frontier of the Roman Empire. These priests practiced astrology, which at the time was a hybrid of astrology and what we now call astronomy. They were adept at interpreting dreams (which we possibly get a flavor of in Daniel 2). At the time just prior to the birth of Jesus, the Magi formed the upper house of the Megistanes council, whose duties included the election of the king of the Parthian empire (Strabo, XI, ix, 3). Thus, the Magi at this time were also possibly kingmakers as well as astrologers.

IFEELFREE: The idea that the martyrdom of Jesus was the literal and final sacrifice of God is a perversion of the Truth. The true sacrifice of Jesus occurred while he was still alive. That sacrifice was of an esoteric spiritual nature, and it is of no inherent value to any other human being, unless that individual will duplicate that same sacrifice in the processes of his own body-mind. Jesus and his disciples preached conversion to the Living God, not to the God of cultic belief or priestly ritualism or vicarious and symbolic blood sacrifices. Everyone must make the true sacrifice of conversion to the Life-Principle. Everyone must be forgiven. Everyone must turn away from sin. Everyone must submit to the living cross, the central nervous system, which obliges all knowledge and all desire to submit to Life. In other words, everyone must enter into heartfelt bodily communion with the Living God.

LEE: Again, this contradicts the earliest oral Christian tradition, the canonical New Testament, and 2,000 years of subsequent Christian history. The climactic moment of the Christian story is Jesus’ bodily resurrection from the dead, thus conquering sin and death and demonstrating God’s vindication of his messianic claims. Jesus HAD to offer himself as a sacrifice because without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins. I don’t get to change that because I want what I think is a deeper, more mystical version of redemption. The only way people can enter into heartfelt bodily communion with the Living God is through this saacrifice.I’m sorry, but that’s the only way.

Thus, the Eastern Jesus is a false Jesus. The New Testament warned of false Christs masquerading as the real Christ. They had ‘em in the first century and we’ve had ‘em ever since.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 7:31 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 7:44 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: >LEE: As I’ve tried to point out to Akhenaten, these are two completely different Jesuses. The Christian Jesus was Jewish, and claimed, not only to be>the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, but God incarnate, who would redeem, not just people from physical aqnd spiritual death, but also the whole>created world from its bondage to decay, through his death, burial and resurrection. Actually he didn’t, others did.As for the Gnostics, I understand what they said better than your Wright(?) does and in one sense they are correct. Albiet I’d drop the good/evil thing, and maybe use the words good/bad, if any. One might point out that certain Christians believed the world to be evil too…….The Demi-Urge is the creator of this reality, with the understanding that the Demi-Urge is a term for the Ego.And not all gnostics believed as Wright claims either.Plus Jesus was a gnostic.

LEE: Wright was generalizing. True, the various sects loosely known under the umnbrella term Gnostic, were not indentical however they DID share certain beliefs in common, which Wright set out, chief among them the view that matter and creation was bad. And with all due respect, I think I’ll stick with the opinion of a world-reknowned NT scholar as to what ancient Gnostics believed. Wright’s short book on the Gospel of Judas should be required reading.As for the Demiurge being another term for the Ego, I’m not sure ancient Gnostics would’ve put such a spin on it. In their view there REALLY was a Demiurge who REALLY did create the physical world. It wasn’t mythopeic or simply pious metaphor for them. The ancient Gnostics weren’t happy, tolerant, non-judgmental, all you need is love people sitting in a circle singing Kum-ba-ya. They could be dogmatic, intolerant, and argued as much with each other as they did with Christians. The Gnostics weren’t the Im okay, you’re okay people everyone likes to think they were. If ancient Gnosticism was so popular, why did Gnosticism gradually die out? And no, it wasn’t persecuted out of existence by those mean ol’ Church fathers, Gnosticism died out on its own. Because it was just too weird even for most pagan Greeks and Romans. Modern, neo-Gnosticism, with its allegorial/metaphorial reinterpretations of ancient Gnostic beliefs, is no more authentic, historical Gnosticism than modern Wicca is authentic, historic, ancient Celtic spirituality.Some later medieval Christians might’ve thought the world was evil, but Jesus and the New Testament apostles did not. Branches of orthodox Christianity got infected with a kind of Gnosticism despite the efforts of fathers like Irenaeus to prevent it. But such views are not taught in the Bible.Jesus could not have been Gnostic, because Gnosticism, or a kind of proto-Gnosticism, didn’t exist until the mid-late first century AD, and full-blown Nag Hammadi Gnosticism didn’t exist until the mid-second century AD, long after Jesus and the New Testament.Jesus was JEWISH. Judaism taught that the world was good, and created so by the one god YHWH, but that due to sin it was being held in bondage, but that one day YHWH would redeemn, not only his people Israel, but the whole created world. Gnosticism, on the other hand, was generally spiritually anti-Semitic, equating the Hebrew God YHWH with the Demiurge who was responsible for creating the world and trapping the souls of men in corrupt physical bodies. That’s why Marcion edited the NT, down to just Luke-Acts and the letters of Paul, albeit stripped of any overtly Jewish theological views.The Gnostic Jesus wasn’t concerned with saving the world, but in teaching a few spiritual elites how to escape it. The Gnostic Jesus wasn’t grounded in time and space because time and space were a part of the material prison he was trying to show his cultists how to escape from. Thus if you want the REAL Jesus, you gotta go with the Jewisj=h Jesus EVERY TIME.

Pax.Lee.

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
June 18, 2009 7:33 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Jesus happens to be the second person of the Godhead. Gee, don’t ya wish people would just read their Bibles and believe it?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 7:43 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>As for the Demiurge being another term for the Ego, I’m not sure ancient Gnostics would’ve put such a spin on it. In their view there REALLY was a>Demiurge who REALLY did create the physical world. It wasn’t mythopeic or simply pious metaphor for them. That’s what I’m saying, your ego creates this reality in conjunction with everyone elses.

And never did I say they weren’t judgemental, all you need is love type people. I would say I expect some of them were. Most would understandabale want to get away from the corruption of their society.And gnosticism didn’t die out, it has and always will exist in it’s many forms. For example, Zen Buddhism (btw when Jesus took Thomas aside he was doing his Zen thing) and Sufism are forms of Gnosticism.

And I realize you’ll stick with Wright, however you have to understand I’ll stick with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they were there Wright wasn’t and he has no idea of the full teachings of the Gnostics.

Btw, gnostic and magic traditions were with the church and remain there today. Though they have long lost the meanings of those traditions.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 7:45 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I’m not a polytheist.

Btw, Jesus said he wasn’t. In fact there are six places in the Bible that say he isn’t (sorry can’t recall which ones – been a number of years since I was given them).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 7:49 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
I’ll stick with the New Testament Jewish Jesus and HIS Holy Spirit, the Jesus who happens to be taught/proclaimed by scholars like Wright, rather than the non-Jewish Greek Gnostic Jesus with his strange, sci-fi sounding myths (I think the Gnostics would’ve liked the Ancients in Stargate SG-1 who ascended) and disjointed pithy sayings.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:15 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 8:15 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
glenn: IFF, what is the evidence supporting your claim that Jesus travelled in the ‘East’?

IFF: For a brief introduction to the topic, see the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesusa

long with the references cited therein. Also, see: The Yoga of Jesus by Paramahansa Yogananda.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:24 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Christine… was thinking l’ll need to re-look at it again, and the very next e-mail l got was Gift Bibles from Amazon.com. Think that’s a sign that l should be re-reading it.

However which one do l choose? There are quite a few and not sure which one to select. Thanks LS.



Posted on
June 18, 2009 8:25 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
New American Standard, or the NKJV are good translations, Laura.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:29 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 8:31 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Jesus made it very clear who He was.

The Bible says they killed Him for making Himself equal with God….gee I think thats pretty self explanatory don’t you?

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

He was either who He claimed to Be (God in Human Flesh) or He was a crazy, delusional person, or He was a LIAR. There are no other options.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:30 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Okay thanks, the NKJV one was the one that most caught my eye. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:33 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I’m talking about the real ones, not the ones corrupted by the church.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:34 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 8:35 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
You are welcome, Laura. The NKJV is a bit easier reading from the flowerly KJ prose, but doesn’t change any of the meanings of the basic doctrines. Remember how to study it so that it is understandable. Gen thru Acts / God dealing with a NATION / Law of Moses/ JudaismRomans thru Philemon / God building a BODY which is KEPT SECRET in the OT and revealed in Pauls letters/ GRACE / ChristianityHeb thru Rev / God resumes His interrrupted plan with Israel/ back to the law of Moses/ Judaism



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:35 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
yes there are…..



Posted on
June 18, 2009 8:36 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
No, Bryan…there AREN’T.

Gee, this ignore feature is gettin a real workout this morning. Blessed relief from having to listen to sentimental drivel as opposed to TRUTH.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:39 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Well l’ll need to buy another one as well. What one would you recommend? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:40 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: IFeelFree, this is still a different Jesus. The New Testament says nothing about the Vedanta or Buddhism. Jesus was Jewish, and claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, not a Tibetan ascended master.

IFF: Of course not. Jesus brought his own unique message through his teaching. However, he was familiar with methods of God communion similar to those taught in the Eastern wisdom traditions, and it is highly likely (based on historical evidence) the Jesus traveled in the East and probably spent some time as a disciple of one or more of the Eastern spiritual masters in these traditions.

Lee: WHERE in the NT or anywhere else do you find evidence to paint Jesus as an Eastern sage? I’m familiar with this theory that Jesus traveled to India or somewhere in the East during his lost years, but am not at all persuaded because there’s no historical evidence for it.

IFF: Buddhist, Hindu, and Tibetan accounts of Jesus exist. (For a brief introduction, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus ) For example, records exist in a Tibetan monastery which speak of a saint Issa (Arabic for Yeshua) of Israel, born of a virgin, in whom was manifest the soul of the universe, who was in India and the Himalayan regions among saints, monks, and pundits, preaching his message throughout the area, and then returning to his native land, where he was treated vilely, condemned, and put to death.

Lee: The climactic moment of the Christian story is Jesus’ bodily resurrection from the dead, thus conquering sin and death and demonstrating God’s vindication of his messianic claims. Jesus HAD to offer himself as a sacrifice because without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins.

IFF: Christ has been greatly misinterpreted by the world. Even the most elementary principles of his teachings have been desecrated, and their esoteric depths forgotten. They have been crucified at the hand of dogma, prejudice, and limited understanding. The bodily and personal survival of Jesus as the traditional foundation of Christian belief and practice is based on a false understanding. The truth of the teaching of Jesus (an extension of the teaching of the ancients) did not at all depend on his survival, or on the knowledge on the part of others of his survival. Jesus, like others, taught that the sacrifice that is essential is not cultic or external to the individual, but a moral and personal sacrifice made through love. It is the sacrifice of all that is oneself, and all that one possesses, into forms of loving and compassionate participation with others, and into the absolute mystery of the divine Reality in which we all arise and change and ultimately disappear. Therefore, the proof of his teaching is not in the independent survival of anything or anyone, but in the enlightened, free, and moral happiness of those who live the sacrifice while alive and even at death.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:51 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 8:52 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFFYes, yes to misinterpretation of Christ conversation. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 8:57 AM PDT

glenn says:
IFF,

If I understand the wiki article you pointed me to, there are 2 peices of hard evidence to support the claim that Jesus travelled to the East.

1. A Russian writer who claimed he translated the story from a manuscript he found. There seems to be some question as to if this gent was ever in the country.

2. An Indian swamy who translated part of the same document.

Yet this document, itself, has never been produced.

So are you saying that this, several local traditions and some similarites in Jesus’ teachings lead you to believe that not only did Jesus travel and learn in the East but that most of the NT and early church tradition is incorrect?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 9:05 AM PDT

glenn says:
LS and IFF,

If the writings of Jesus’ disciples, their disciples, and their disciples on down through the 2,000 year history of Christianity all say X, on what do you base the claim that the message really is Y?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 9:40 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 9:49 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
glenn: So are you saying that this, several local traditions and some similarites in Jesus’ teachings lead you to believe that not only did Jesus travel and learn in the East but that most of the NT and early church tradition is incorrect?

IFF: No. While I am saying that this evidence (and more) suggests that Jesus traveled in the East, my assertion that traditional Christianity is a corruption of Jesus’ teachings is based on knowledge accumulated during my own spiritual journey, the spiritual experiences of myself and others, and on many traditional and modern sources. I have practiced meditation and other yogic methods for 35 years, and I have participated, and lived in, a number of small esoteric communities. I’ve observed the contrast between actual and mature religious practice, on one hand, and outward adherence to false or deluding beliefs and superficial behavioral modifications, on the other. On the basis of all of this, I have come to a point of intuitive certainty about the essential experience and esoteric teaching that was shared by Jesus and the inner or initiated community that surrounded him. It is apparent that the true esoteric core of religion has been lost within the large traditional religions such as Christianity. Traditional religion has become dangerous nonsense, because it long ago abandoned the practice of making true religious and esoteric participation a condition of church membership. This was necessary for the survival of these religions because the majority of humanity is not yet ready or willing to adapt to higher moral, spiritual, and evolutionary culture.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 9:46 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 9:50 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
glenn,

For alternative views of Christ’s teachings, I offer the following:

The Second Coming of Christ: The Resurrection of the Christ Within You by Paramahansa Yogananda

A Call for the Radical Reformation of Christianity by Da Free John

The New Testament and Mythology and Other Basic Writings by Rudolf Bultmann

The Spiritual Instructions of Saint Seraphim of Sarov by Franklin Jones

The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or, Mystic Christianity by Max Heindel

Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas by Elaine Pagels

The Disappearance of the Universe and Your Immortal Reality by Gary Renard

The Nag Hammadi Library in English by James Robinson

The Golden String: An Autobiography by Bede Griffiths

Mystery Man of the Bible by Prof. Hilton Hotema

The Coming of the Cosmic Christ by Matthew Fox

Bhakti in Religions of the World by Chhaganlal Lala

Christian Mysticism: Transcending Techniques by Marilyn May Mallory

Incarnation in Hinduism and Christianity: The Myth of the God-man by Daniel E. Bassuk

Avatar and Incarnation: The Divine in Human Form in the World’s Religions by Geoffrey Parrinder

The Problem of the Self in Buddhism and Christianity by Lynn A. De Silva

Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark by Morton Smith



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 10:15 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 10:24 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I presume your talking about the bible.

I’m not sure it actually matters, they’re all somewhat corrupted, though reading something in the semi-original greek wouldn’t hurt.(when I refer to talking to Jesus or the Holy Spirit, more the latter than the former, but it’s them who I ask, and than see where things go. On my initial ‘waking’ up, I was led to reread material from all the major religions, either because the material wasn’t available when I was younger or because I was given new insight into the deeper meaning of some things, plus a reminder of other things from when I was younger. But there are tricks and traps in all the scriptures for the unwary).

Among the books I was led to were:

The Mystic Christ (besides being shown two places in the bible that referred to it, this also showed up) by Ethan Walther III

The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagel (at the time I couldn’t have told you at all why I bought that book, but I can say I felt a great sadness at reading it).

More recently some of her other books, The Origin of Satan.

The Gospel of Mary Magdelene by Jean-Ives Leloup

The Gospel of Thomas by Jean-Ives LeLeloup

Also this is a piece of good software if you have a PC (and the Bahai faith was the last revelation):

http://www.bahai-education.org/ocean/

Most of the rest I get is from visions, songs and what gets downloaded to me.

And my main area of interest was our nature, how we got into this mess, how the prophecies work, etc. Some other stuff came along with that.



Posted on
June 18, 2009 12:44 PM PDT

Pete says:
[Deleted by Amazon on June 19, 2009 2:46 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 1:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 1:40 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee: IFeelFree, this is still a different Jesus. The New Testament says nothing about the Vedanta or Buddhism. Jesus was Jewish, and claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, not a Tibetan ascended master.IFF: Of course not. Jesus brought his own unique message through his teaching. However, he was familiar with methods of God communion similar to those taught in the Eastern wisdom traditions, and it is highly likely (based on historical evidence) the Jesus traveled in the East and probably spent some time as a disciple of one or more of the Eastern spiritual masters in these traditions.Lee: WHERE in the NT or anywhere else do you find evidence to paint Jesus as an Eastern sage? I’m familiar with this theory that Jesus traveled to India or somewhere in the East during his lost years, but am not at all persuaded because there’s no historical evidence for it.IFF: Buddhist, Hindu, and Tibetan accounts of Jesus exist. (For a brief introduction, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus ) For example, records exist in a Tibetan monastery which speak of a saint Issa (Arabic for Yeshua) of Israel, born of a virgin, in whom was manifest the soul of the universe, who was in India and the Himalayan regions among saints, monks, and pundits, preaching his message throughout the area, and then returning to his native land, where he was treated vilely, condemned, and put to death.

LEE: IFF, I think you’re reading too much into these records. All they are evidence of is that there are records about Jesus in Tibetan monasteries. That in itself doesn’t prove that Jesus ever journeyed to Asia. More likely is that these records are a holdover from earlier Christian mission efforts to the near East and Asia beginning in the 6th and 7th centuries AD, and which got as far as China. According to ancient Christian historical tradition, St. Thomas the apostle was martyred in India. The ancient relations between the St. Thomas Christians of Malabar (India) and the Orthodox churches of the East have long been well-known among Indian Christians since it is an essential component of their history. And I understand that archaeologists have discovered a Nestorian Christian stele in China, dating to the 8th century AD, that celebrates Chinese Christianity. Prof. Phillip Jenkins of Penn. State has written an excellent, very readable yet scholarly overview of these early Asian Christian mission efforts called The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia–and How It Died. So the existence of records about Jesus in Tibet and other Asian areas is much better explained by the presence of early Christian missionary efforts. There’s basically no good evidence anywhere that the Jewish Jesus, as a young boy, ever travelled outside the Jewish Diaspora of the Eastern Mediterranean. It makes great fantasy, but that’s all it is.

IFF: Lee: The climactic moment of the Christian story is Jesus’ bodily resurrection from the dead, thus conquering sin and death and demonstrating God’s vindication of his messianic claims. Jesus HAD to offer himself as a sacrifice because without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins.IFF: Christ has been greatly misinterpreted by the world. Even the most elementary principles of his teachings have been desecrated, and their esoteric depths forgotten. They have been crucified at the hand of dogma, prejudice, and limited understanding. The bodily and personal survival of Jesus as the traditional foundation of Christian belief and practice is based on a false understanding. The truth of the teaching of Jesus (an extension of the teaching of the ancients) did not at all depend on his survival, or on the knowledge on the part of others of his survival. Jesus, like others, taught that the sacrifice that is essential is not cultic or external to the individual, but a moral and personal sacrifice made through love. It is the sacrifice of all that is oneself, and all that one possesses, into forms of loving and compassionate participation with others, and into the absolute mystery of the divine Reality in which we all arise and change and ultimately disappear. Therefore, the proof of his teaching is not in the independent survival of anything or anyone, but in the enlightened, free, and moral happiness of those who live the sacrifice while alive and even at death.

LEE: I Corinthians 15:3-7, recounting Christ’s death, burial, bodily resurrection, and his post-resurrection appearances to the apostles, including Peter and James, 500 other Christians, and finally Paul, is an ancient Christian credal stament, one of the oldest on record, having been dated by NT scholars (of all stripes) to ca. 33-35 AD. Paul wrote I Corinthians around 55 AD, several years before the first gospel (Mark’s) was written (ca. 65-70 AD). This is undeniable proof that the very earliest Christians, a mere 3-5 years after Jesus’ death, were proclaiming his death and bodily resurrection as the center-piece of the Christian faith. Thus there was no distortion of Jesus’ teachings. Jesus predicted his death, burial and resurrection in alll four gospels. The gospels and Paul harmonize totally on this point.As for the titles you listed above, Bultmann’s views are no longer accorded the precedence they were 60 years ago; his views have basically been abandoned by most NT scholars. Pagels’ views on the Gnostic texts are not universally endorsed among NT scholars, either. In fact, she’s among the minority of scholars who ssem to want to argue that the Gnostic texts are as old as, or even predate, the canonical NT texts, and that Gnosticism is just as, or probably more valid, a form of Christianity as the orthodox view which she claims won out through the machinations of power-hungry, politically motivated bishops. Lastly, Morton Smith’s Secret Gospel of Mark has been pretty conclusively proven a forgery, an elaborate hoax cooked up by Smith. The rest seem to be popular works by non-scholars. Might I recommend a few easy to read titles by scholars arguing a different interpretation?

Prof. Philip Jenkins’ Hidden Gospels: How the Search for Jesus Lost Its Way.

Bishop NT Wright’s Judas and the Gospel of Jesus: Have We Missed the Truth about Christianity?

Prof. Darrell Bock’s Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth About Alternative Christianities.

Prof. Craig Evans’ Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 1:32 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
For me it was 3 of the books IFF’s mentioned the Rudolf Bultmann, Belle Griffiths and Lynn a De Silva ones. Rudolf Steiner’s books and writter’s of his work (Much easier to understand!) …and because l work for a Steiner organisation.

Knowledge of the Higher Worlds

Vision of Love-Spiritual Science and the Logic of the Heart,

Bernard Nesfield-Cookson.

Study of Man- fouteen lectures by Rudolf Steiner.

The Fifth Gospel

Plus a multitude of books on various Eastern Religions.

Hence my interest in re-reading The Bible again… to see new aspects or links that I probably missed before. Experiences of myself and a good few friends and collegues. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 2:48 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: IFF, I think you’re reading too much into these records. All they are evidence of is that there are records about Jesus in Tibetan monasteries. That in itself doesn’t prove that Jesus ever journeyed to Asia.

IFF: These records state that Yeshua (Jesus) traveled through Asia, and so, are evidence of this. However, it is disingenuous to talk about proof. There is no proof of historical events, short of unambiguous physical evidence. We can’t even prove that Jesus ever existed. All we have are ancient records.

Lee: …This is undeniable proof that the very earliest Christians, a mere 3-5 years after Jesus’ death, were proclaiming his death and bodily resurrection as the center-piece of the Christian faith. Thus there was no distortion of Jesus’ teachings. Jesus predicted his death, burial and resurrection in alll four gospels. The gospels and Paul harmonize totally on this point.

IFF: These constitute evidence that Jesus, lived, was crucified, and may even have been resurrected. They do not demonstrate that Jesus’ murder atoned for all the sins of humanity for all time. This is a misunderstanding. Jesus’ murder was, in part, the result of his having taken on some of the karma of his disciples and those to whom Jesus performed healing. So, it can be said that Jesus died for the sins of others. This has been wrongly take to mean that Jesus died for all the sins of everyone. In truth, salvation is not attained through the vicarious or substitutional sacrifice of another. The process of human liberation in Truth has nothing to do with any blood sacrifice that Jesus performed by being nailed to a cross. Such an idea is cultic nonsense. Salvation requires that each individual enter into heartfelt bodily communion with the Living God. The historical person of Jesus is now beyond the reach of humanity. He has gone on to fulfill his own evolutionary destiny in the realm of nature. Only the living God, or the transcendental Reality to which Jesus pointed with his entire life and teaching, remains for us to embrace in love. We must surrender to the life-principle, the living God, the Holy Spirit, the radiant Self of all beings, Who is the truth, the way, and the destiny of all. That is why Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach his followers all things when Jesus had departed this earth. With respect to your criticism of my references, you are presenting a highly biased point of view. For example, Morton Smith’s Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark has not been pretty conclusively proven a forgery, an elaborate hoax at all. The controversy is far from settled, and there are scholars on both sides of the issue. Ultimately, a true interpretation of Jesus’ teachings is not gained primarily from scholars, but by an awakened understanding of the divine Reality. Therefore, I place greater emphasis on writers who speak from their own experience and realization, such as Yogananda and Renard.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 3:05 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 18, 2009 3:06 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
IFF

Whoa, hold on there, in you book list you listed The dissappearing universe,and Your immortal reality

Both by Gary Renard . have you read them??

Thats some pretty out there Theology No?

Ive read both but would not confess to such on these forums



In reply to an earlier post on
June 18, 2009 7:28 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
ALFAARA,Yes, I’ve read them. I am in agreement with the non-dualist view of Christianity expressed in those books.




Posted on
June 18, 2009 10:55 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 3:55 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 19, 2009 4:00 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
To IFF, Have you read the Fifth Gospel by Steiner? Explains about the secret Christ Being.

Any real understanding of the Christ Being needs extensive preparation, that the very deepest concepts and thoughts must be summoned to his aid (not Christs aid but ours), if he desires to reach some comprehension of Christ and of the Christ Impulse working through the centuries. p10.

Am thinking that you probably don’t need to read this book as you seem to have the information already from other sources.I really struggled with the Christ concept as l was so anti-church and so not going there – because any God who would punnish us was not for me! (This followed very irregular attendances to several churches,and both my parents were atheists.. or so they said.) This book allowed me to re-evalue his Being and the the reasoning for his existence on Earth….that l could accept whole-heartedly.

Have not read the Renard books so can’t comment there. Yet more books to look out for then!!



Posted on
June 19, 2009 6:34 AM PDT

Mr. RL Van Den Berg says:
I recently started reading the book – The Hebrew Book of the Dead – In the Wilderness

It depicts the journey of the Soul as the journey of Israel from leaving Egypt, where they crossed the wilderness and the Jordan to enter the Promised Land.

It was in existence for about 1000 yrs by the time David ruled in Jerusalem. There are many references to the Kabbalistic Tree of Life and reincarnation in there. So this pretty much means that those who claim that there is no such understandings within Judaism is wrong. Those who refute the Kabbalistic Tree of Life based on the Sepher Yetzirah is also wrong. Someone on here argued with me that the Tree of Life from the Sepher Yetzirah is not Biblical as they were only documented fairly recently – probably 100BC. Well, the Hebrew Book of the Dead disproves your thinking.

Just looking at the writings of Origin and how the Councils of the church in the 6th century went to extremes to erradicate this doctrine already gives us a good idea it was all done to control the masses and keep humanity in ignorance.

So Laura, Akh, Bryan and Rosita – I stand behind you 100%

Len



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 8:07 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 19, 2009 8:17 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF, you’re basing your view that Jesus journeyed to Asia on some old Tibetan texts that claim Jesus traveled through Asia. That could hardly be considered conclusive proof. How old are these texts? Who wrote them? Who did they write them to? And why did they write them? Are there other, independent texts written by different authors in diffeent times and places which also claim Jesus wandered Asia? How did Jesus get there? When he he get there? How long did he stay? Why aren’t there early Christian traditions of Jesus’ journeying to Asia? Because I just can’t see these as other than apocryphal. Like the 2nd century apocryphal Christian legends that developed about Jesus.We know there were very early Christian missions to Asia. Far more likely is that Christian missionaries traveling through Asia brought the message of Jesus to these people, who later corrupted the story into it being Jesus himself who journeyed to Tibet.

As for the credal statement in I Corinthians 15, it is evidence that the very earliest Christians were proclaiming Jesius’ bodily resurrection. Further, it was quoted by the very Jewish apostle Paul, who says that it was prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures, and that if the Corithinans believe it, they will be saved. Nothing is said of karma, or past lives or ascended masters. Paul is VERY clear that Jesus died to redeem the WHOLE WORLD. Hebrews, too, is clear that without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins. Hebrews also says we die once then face the judgment. If you’re going to say the New Testament is wrong, then you’ve just thrown out our earliest and best sources for Jesus’ teaching. You can’t mix and match. It doesn’t work that way. Eastern religion is simply incompatible with either Judaism or Christianity. It’s like mixing oil and water. The Gnostic texts are also incompatible with Judaism and Christianity because as I said, they’re against matter and the physical universe, believing them creations of an impostor Demiurge often identified with the Jewish god YHWH. Jesus, in most forms of Gnosticism, wasn’t God, and didn’t really die, much less resurrect from the dead, certainly not bodily.Jesus was Jewish, not Buddhist or Hindu. Peter was Jewish. James was Jewish. Paul was Jewish. Nearly ALL of the earliest Christians were Jewish. Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism, with Yeshua (Jesus) being the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, or Christ in Greek.Jesus’ 1st century 2nd Temple Judaism knew nothing of karma, past lives, Buddhism, Akashic Records, Tantric Yoga, etc. Judaism was about the Covenant God of Israel reedeming the world from sin and death through Israel. What Israel could not/would not do, Jesus did, by standing in for Israel; Yeshua fulfilled Israel’s destiny. If you strip away Jesus’ Jewishness and Messhiaship and make him some kind of bland teacher of timeless truths, you’ve taken away everything that makes him distinctively who he is.

As for your sources, respectfully, they are mostly non-scholarly popular sources. The ones that are scholarly, are biased, certainly Pagels is. Many scholars challenge her interpretation of the Gnostic texts. Bultmann’s views have been out of fashion in NT scholarship for over fifty years. I can’t think of any reputable NT scholars who accept Morton Smith’s Secret Gospel as genuinine, though maybe I’m just forgetting some. Nevertheless, I could list a dozen reasons why this text has to be a forgery. But I would humbly suggest that if you want to underrstand the real Jesus you must broaden your reading.We can know historically who/what Jesus was. In fact, this is crucial. Christianity claims that at a certain point in recorded history God became man, was crucified and bodily resurrected. Paul is clear that if Jesus wasn’t bodily resurrected, the whole show’s off, everyone is still trapped in their sins, and Christians are sad for believing a silly myth.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 8:24 AM PDT

glenn says:
Lee,As always, well said.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 8:32 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Paul is clear that if Jesus wasn’t bodily resurrected, the whole show’s off, everyone is still trapped in their sins, and Christians are sad for believing a silly>myth.

You got it……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 8:35 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
When I was first led to some of this, I don’t think it was done so intentionally, not so sure how to put it, just that they didn’t understand the way of things. And so not understanding, they tried to control it.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 9:34 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
yes except he forgot certain things……And History thus repeats itself…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 9:43 AM PDT

glenn says:
Bryan,Yes, history is replete with people who think they understand Jesus better than His disciples did. And it doesn’t stop.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 9:52 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
that’s funnier than you think…….btw you missed the point…..two points actually…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 11:16 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: IFF, you’re basing your view that Jesus journeyed to Asia on some old Tibetan texts that claim Jesus traveled through Asia. That could hardly be considered conclusive proof.

IFF: There you go again with the demand for proof. Proof in a mathematical sense is simply not possible for historical events. All we have is evidence, and with respect to the lost years of Jesus, we have to look at whatever evidence we have. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus spent his early childhood in Egypt, and in Alexandria there was a large Buddhist community known as the Therapeutae (Sons of the Elders). Jesus could certainly have been exposed to Buddhism during that time in his life. Some scholars, such as Elaine Pagels, Elmar Gruber, Holger Kersten, discuss this possibility. Also, the Tibetan monastery of Hemis in Ladakh contains remarkable records of Issa, who is believed by many to be Jesus. There are also Hindu and Tibetan accounts of Jesus’ presence in their part of the world, such as the Bhavishyat Maha Purana which assert that Israelites settled in India, and in verses 17-32 apparently describes the arrival of Jesus, who referred to himself: I am called Isaputra (son of God), born of a virgin, minister of the non-believers, relentlessly in search of the truth. In any case, since I believe in reincarnation, I’m certain that Jesus was exposed to the Eastern wisdom teachings in previous lives, if not in his incarnation as Jesus.

Lee: Paul is VERY clear that Jesus died to redeem the WHOLE WORLD.

IFF: As I said, Christ has been much misinterpreted by the world. Paul was a conventional Jew, trained in the sectarian rabbinical system of his time. He was not taught by Jesus or the disciples of Jesus, nor does the point of view expressed in his letters represent the true teaching of Jesus. Paul came to feel that he (and humanity in general) was inherently separated from God. He felt there was no effective means for restoring himself (or anyone) to God since there was — it seemed to him — some kind of inherent obstruction in everyone that could not be transcended.

Then, as reported in his letters, Paul experienced a mystical phenomenon (which he associated with Jesus) that encouraged him to believe that the inherent obstruction and separation between beings and God had been conquered, for everyone, by the death (or ritual blood-sacrifice) and resurrection of Jesus. And he spent the rest of his life proclaiming this religion — which is the faith or systematic belief in the effective power of Jesus’ self-sacrifice to bring everyone to eventual union with God. This Pauline religion is not the religion or way taught by Jesus. It is only a mythological religion about Jesus. It is not a method that in fact does what it proclaims to be able to do. That is, if the ego merely witnesses or believes in the self-sacrifice of another, it neither transcends itself nor receives the ultimate results of the other’s sacrifice.Jesus taught a personal way of spiritual self-sacrifice, or the way of self-transcending love of God, and ultimate inherence in God expressed in daily life via self-transcending love, tolerance, and service, of all living beings. He did not subscribe to the view that living beings are inherently evil or inherently separated from God. He described every living being as a child of one Father. Jesus taught that sin (or all that people do or think that separates them from God or obstructs their union with God and divine happiness) is not inherent. He taught that people can and must repent of sin (or the tendency to separate from God). He taught that such repentance purifies people, as long as it is practiced as a continuous and real exercise, followed by changes of mind and action. And he taught that such self-purification, rather than any participation or belief in ritual or substitute sacrifices, is the basic means for entering into union with the Divine Spirit.

Lee: Jesus was Jewish, not Buddhist or Hindu.

IFF: Which is why that many of Jesus’ teachings are so remarkable in the way they reflect the Eastern wisdom teachings. When Jesus asked, Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16), it is pure Vedanta. While Jesus adapted to the circumstances of his time, he also transcended them. He instructed people within his native tradition, but he taught them how to transcend themselves and their religious conventionality via a direct process of God-communion.

Lee: As for your sources, respectfully, they are mostly non-scholarly popular sources.

IFF: Only those individuals who have awakened to the living Spirit of God can really fathom the depth of Jesus’ teachings. As long as you limit your understanding of Jesus to that presented by scholars, you will never know the real Christ, the perfect Son, the eternal Self, that we all share.

Lee: Paul is clear that if Jesus wasn’t bodily resurrected, the whole show’s off, everyone is still trapped in their sins, and Christians are sad for believing a silly myth.

IFF: Look around. Jesus may have been bodily resurrected (I believe he was), but everyone is still trapped in their sins anyway — especially Christians! Christians struggle with sin as much as anyone. They have not built a true bridge to God based on a life of self-transcending spiritual practice and selfless service. They propagate the egoic lie that we are inherently separate from God. As long as the ego is the basis of religion, there is no reunion with God. As Jesus taught, there is no substitute for the personally practiced self-transcending love of God (or the Transcendental Divine Truth), and there is no true religion without self-transcending love, tolerance, and cooperation in relation to others.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 11:20 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 19, 2009 11:34 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee, What if Christ was spiritually returned rather than physically resurrected? Does this not offer a new merged meaning of both Christianity and Eastern religions? Plus if God is the ultimate spiritual being…resurrecting a body could be done don’t you think if he is the Creator of the Universe and all the Spiritual worlds.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 11:23 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
yep.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 11:36 AM PDT

glenn says:
LS,It would, yes and that is exactly the point. Jesus was not just spiritually resurrected. If He had been only spiritually resurrected Chrisitianity would be a useful mythology like so many others. The fact that Jesus was physically resurrected sets Chrisitanity apart as not only effective but true.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 12:26 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
glenn: The fact that Jesus was physically resurrected sets Chrisitanity apart as not only effective but true.

IFF: That assumes that Jesus was the only human being to be physically resurrected. However, other physical resurrections have been reported, such as the 5th century Bodhidharma, and the 9th century Chinese Chan master Puhua. Perhaps the most recent is the resurrection of the yogi Sri Yukteswar in 1936, as described by his disciple Paramahansa Yogananda in Autobiography of a Yogi.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 12:33 PM PDT

glenn says:
IFF,did those gentlemen claim to be the Jewish Messiah? Or God?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 1:09 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 19, 2009 1:10 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
glenn,No, of course not. However, in non-dualism — which includes much of the Hindu and Buddhist teachings — God is understood to be inseparable from all of creation, and so spiritual awakening is seen as discovering one’s own inherent oneness with God. Therefore, these spiritual teachers very likely would proclaim their identity as divine Spirit.



Posted on
June 19, 2009 1:48 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
http://www.williamjames.com/transcripts/campbell.htm

Transcript of Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove Interviewing Joseph Campbell

CAMPBELL: Of course they’re not. I mean, you’ve got — I think they’ve got hundreds and hundreds of galaxies now, and clusters of galaxies, and so forth, and every galaxy as great, and some of them greater than our whole Milky Way, with our sun on the outskirts of one of these — my God, you know. So then God is particularly the one who thought of this whole thing. Of course that’s not the one in the Bible at all, because all he thought of was a three-layered birthday cake.

MISHLOVE: And yet doesn’t it seem that some of the Hindus have anticipated this universe?

CAMPBELL: Oh, they’ve got it, they’ve got it, they’ve got it. Not only that, but they’ve got the cycles of the coming into being of stars, and their going out in grandeur. We’ve got a cosmic cycle of about — what would it be? About twelve thousand years. This is ridiculous.

MISHLOVE: The Hindus seemed to know that there were cycles within cycles, and gods within gods.

CAMPBELL: God knows how they found it out, but when you read the myths of the Puranas of India, the Mahabharata, there’s no problem correlating that with modern science, no problem at all.

MISHLOVE: I have often wondered whether many of the myths of magical powers and the siddhis, or the psychic powers that appear in myths, aren’t somehow evolutionary precursors of what we might become — that the myths are guiding us into our future.

CAMPBELL: Well, insofar as they revealed potentialities of the human spirit, they are prophetic, because I think the human spirit is developing. I don’t take a negative attitude toward what’s happening with the human spirit. I take a very negative attitude with what’s happening to our politicians, but that has nothing to do with the human spirit. I mean, the chaos in the world today is not a function of the illumination of humanity today; it’s a function of the bungling of a bunch of self interested politicians.

MISHLOVE: It’s ironic that as we seem to be getting in touch more as a culture with our deeper powers, we’re also confronting deeper challenges.

CAMPBELL: That’s right. And I think they’ll probably work out.

MISHLOVE: One would have to assume though, if we’re to solve the problem that’s confronting the world today, that we will develop a new mythology — that the old myths are no longer serving us in some sense.

CAMPBELL: There are two things that have to happen if you’re going to have a mythology that’s appropriate to man today. One is to take the world of nature as it is known, and my God, I’ve been hearing recently about some of the things that the physicists and astronomers are finding out, and it is magical and incredible. That’s the ground. It’s not difficult to turn that into a mystical inspiration. And the second thing is to realize that the society with which you are involved is not this group or that group, or this social class or that social class, or this race or that race, but the planet. And we don’t have a mythology for people recognizing the humanity of a person on the other side of the tennis net. So it’ll come, it’ll come; but it isn’t here.

MISHLOVE: I’ve often wondered if some of the notions coming out of quantum physics, such as quantum interconnectedness, don’t express that.

CAMPBELL: They do. You find all kinds of suggestions in the modern world of physics. And boy, you can translate them right into Sanskrit without any trouble. The Hindus have the whole thing already.

http://www.williamjames.com/transcripts/campbell.htm



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 1:56 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 19, 2009 2:28 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: Hiya Lee, What if Christ was spiritually returned rather than physically resurrected? Does this not offer a new merged meaning of both Christianity and Eastern religions? Plus if God is the ultimate spiritual being…resurrecting a body could be done don’t you think if he is the Creator of the Universe and all the Spiritual worlds.

LEE: That’s not really an option because the gospels are clear that there was an empty tomb. Christianity is on a continuum with Judaism, which believed in bodily resurrection. And the gospels are very clear that after Jesus was resurrected he had a solid physical body which could be touched, and still had wound scars.

Plus, the gospels record that the disciples at first mistook Jesus for spirit or ghost and he replies that ghosts don’t have physical bodies. Then, to cap it off, he sits down and eats a meal with them. Spirits don’t eat broiled fish!

Spiritual resurrection is a Greco-Roman concept, a holdover from Platonism, which taught that only the abstract is truly real, thus a person’s immortatal psyche, their soul, is the real them-their physical body is just a disposable shell. Christianity, coming out of Judaism, doesn’t make a distinction between body/soul/spirit. In Hebrew theology if you separate body and soul you no longer have a complete person.

Christianity deals with moral absolutes, not nebulous abstractions. It deals with real, flesh-and-blood people, living in a material world, a world wracked by sin, and enslaved to death. It looks for the redemption/recreation of that world, in which all of God’s bodily resurrected faithful will live, immortal, never to die again. No reincarnation. No karma. The idea of a spiritual resurrection is thus alien to both Judaism and Christianity. The Bible from Genesis to Revelation talks about physicality and how God created it and wants to save/redeem it. Christianity can only be understood against first century, 2nd Temple Judaism because it claims to be the fulfillment of the Jewish Covenant God YHWH’s plan of redemption.Eastern religions, and beliefs such as the ancient Gnostic heresy, teach that reality and the material world are at best illusions or distractions, at worst bad places you should try to escape.

I’m sorry, but you guys are simply talking about two different Jesuses here.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 2:27 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee: IFF, you’re basing your view that Jesus journeyed to Asia on some old Tibetan texts that claim Jesus traveled through Asia. That could hardly be considered conclusive proof.IFF: There you go again with the demand for proof. Proof in a mathematical sense is simply not possible for historical events. All we have is evidence, and with respect to the lost years of Jesus, we have to look at whatever evidence we have. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus spent his early childhood in Egypt, and in Alexandria there was a large Buddhist community known as the Therapeutae (Sons of the Elders). Jesus could certainly have been exposed to Buddhism during that time in his life. Some scholars, such as Elaine Pagels, Elmar Gruber, Holger Kersten, discuss this possibility. Also, the Tibetan monastery of Hemis in Ladakh contains remarkable records of Issa, who is believed by many to be Jesus. There are also Hindu and Tibetan accounts of Jesus’ presence in their part of the world, such as the Bhavishyat Maha Purana which assert that Israelites settled in India, and in verses 17-32 apparently describes the arrival of Jesus, who referred to himself: I am called Isaputra (son of God), born of a virgin, minister of the non-believers, relentlessly in search of the truth. In any case, since I believe in reincarnation, I’m certain that Jesus was exposed to the Eastern wisdom teachings in previous lives, if not in his incarnation as Jesus.

LEE: I realise objective proof is not possible, but one should have evidence to back up one’s assertions. As for the Theraputae being Buddhists, I think that’s reaching just a bit. Most of what we know about them comes from Philo of Alexandria, with some references in Eusebius. Scholars are uncertain just exactly who/what they were, though we get our word therapy from theraputae, whioch itself is from the GK ‘therapeuo�,’ to heal. Idon’t think we know enough about them to definitely refer to them as Buddhists. When Jesus’ family fled to Alexandria they fled there, in order to fulfill OT prophecy, and because there was a large orthodox Jewish community there-Alexandria was the place where according to tradition the Greek Old Testament translation was begun some 300 years before Christ. Again, I would urge you to expand your reading beyond Pagels and the other scholars you mentioned. You’ll find not all of her views are widely supported by mainstream academics (Christian and non-Christian).

IFF: Lee: Paul is VERY clear that Jesus died to redeem the WHOLE WORLD.IFF: As I said, Christ has been much misinterpreted by the world. Paul was a conventional Jew, trained in the sectarian rabbinical system of his time. He was not taught by Jesus or the disciples of Jesus, nor does the point of view expressed in his letters represent the true teaching of Jesus. Paul came to feel that he (and humanity in general) was inherently separated from God. He felt there was no effective means for restoring himself (or anyone) to God since there was — it seemed to him — some kind of inherent obstruction in everyone that could not be transcended.Then, as reported in his letters, Paul experienced a mystical phenomenon (which he associated with Jesus) that encouraged him to believe that the inherent obstruction and separation between beings and God had been conquered, for everyone, by the death (or ritual blood-sacrifice) and resurrection of Jesus. And he spent the rest of his life proclaiming this religion — which is the faith or systematic belief in the effective power of Jesus’ self-sacrifice to bring everyone to eventual union with God. This Pauline religion is not the religion or way taught by Jesus. It is only a mythological religion about Jesus. It is not a method that in fact does what it proclaims to be able to do. That is, if the ego merely witnesses or believes in the self-sacrifice of another, it neither transcends itself nor receives the ultimate results of the other’s sacrifice.

LEE: According Paul himself, he was a radical Pharisee bent on destroying the New Jesus Movement. Until he had a personal encounter with the resurrected Jesus on his way to Damascus. In this encounter Paul received teaching directly from Jesus, but was also told to contact a Christian named Ananias for further instruction in the faith. And Paul also tells us that later he consuulted Peter and James in Jerusalem, and that their messages were identical.

IFF: Jesus taught a personal way of spiritual self-sacrifice, or the way of self-transcending love of God, and ultimate inherence in God expressed in daily life via self-transcending love, tolerance, and service, of all living beings. He did not subscribe to the view that living beings are inherently evil or inherently separated from God. He described every living being as a child of one Father. Jesus taught that sin (or all that people do or think that separates them from God or obstructs their union with God and divine happiness) is not inherent. He taught that people can and must repent of sin (or the tendency to separate from God). He taught that such repentance purifies people, as long as it is practiced as a continuous and real exercise, followed by changes of mind and action. And he taught that such self-purification, rather than any participation or belief in ritual or substitute sacrifices, is the basic means for entering into union with the Divine Spirit.

LEE: The gospel Jesus proclaimed his identity as Messiah, and the necessity of his crucifixion and resurrection, and, further the need for his followers to carry their own crosses. Jesus calimed to draw all men to myself, not to his teaching. Jesus says no one comes to God the Father but through his sacrifice and belief and trust in it.

IFF: Lee: Jesus was Jewish, not Buddhist or Hindu.IFF: Which is why that many of Jesus’ teachings are so remarkable in the way they reflect the Eastern wisdom teachings. When Jesus asked, Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16), it is pure Vedanta. While Jesus adapted to the circumstances of his time, he also transcended them. He instructed people within his native tradition, but he taught them how to transcend themselves and their religious conventionality via a direct process of God-communion.

LEE: That there are surface similarities between the teaching of Jesus and Buddhism doesn’t mean Jesus studied Buddhism, or taught Buddhists ideas. It just means that, underlying ALL world religions there are some generic similarities. Jesus ALWAYS pointed people to redemption by the Jewish God YHWH via his sacrifice and resurrection. NT scholar NT Wright refers to it as the strange single- plan-of-God-through-Israel-for-the-world.IFF: Lee: As for your sources, respectfully, they are mostly non-scholarly popular sources.

IFF: Only those individuals who have awakened to the living Spirit of God can really fathom the depth of Jesus’ teachings. As long as you limit your understanding of Jesus to that presented by scholars, you will never know the real Christ, the perfect Son, the eternal Self, that we all share.

LEE: Uncritical minds can make Jesus be whoever/whatever they want him to be, from the first communist, to the first feminist, to the first enviromentalist, to a Platonic/Gnostic philosopher, to the Deist non-divine teacher of timeless moral truths, to a Buddhist/New Age ascended master. All of these are views of Jesus people hold. They can’t all be right.

IFF: Lee: Paul is clear that if Jesus wasn’t bodily resurrected, the whole show’s off, everyone is still trapped in their sins, and Christians are sad for believing a silly myth.IFF: Look around. Jesus may have been bodily resurrected (I believe he was), but everyone is still trapped in their sins anyway — especially Christians! Christians struggle with sin as much as anyone. They have not built a true bridge to God based on a life of self-transcending spiritual practice and selfless service. They propagate the egoic lie that we are inherently separate from God. As long as the ego is the basis of religion, there is no reunion with God. As Jesus taught, there is no substitute for the personally practiced self-transcending love of God (or the Transcendental Divine Truth), and there is no true religion without self-transcending love, tolerance, and cooperation in relation to others.

LEE: Jesus’ resurrection conquered sin and death, and inaugurated YHWH’s kingdom. We just haven’t yet seen the full results yet, only the first-fruits. So yes, Christians still sin, often badly! But Paul in Romans tells us that when we’re baptized into Christ we die to sin, so that it no longer controls us.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 19, 2009 4:10 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
IFF: Only those individuals who have awakened to the living Spirit of God can really fathom the depth of Jesus’ teachings. As long as you limit your understanding of Jesus to that presented by scholars, you will never know the real Christ, the perfect Son, the eternal Self, that we all share.LEE: Uncritical minds can make Jesus be whoever/whatever they want him to be, from the first communist, to the first feminist, to the first enviromentalist, to a Platonic/Gnostic philosopher, to the Deist non-divine teacher of timeless moral truths, to a Buddhist/New Age ascended master. All of these are views of Jesus people hold. They can’t all be right.

IFF: That’s the whole point — you can’t understand Christ via the mind. Christ (as opposed to Jesus, the man) is the perfect Son, the universal Self, infinite consciousness, Buddha mind, Krishna consciousness, the all-pervading Christ consciousness that we all share with each other and with God. Jesus is the name we give to that fragment of the whole who remembered his identity as Christ and helps us do the same. Jesus taught a direct process of God communion. Unfortunately, what survives of his teaching today is his exoteric or public teaching. The secret, esoteric methods of God communion were only taught to his initiates, those in his inner circle, and those teachings have been largely lost over the centuries. So, esoteric practices such as meditation have fallen away from daily Christian life, and the true esoteric core of Christianity has been replaced with cultic beliefs about Jesus. Christians need to abandon their cult-like attachment to the mythology of Jesus and discover the true Christ via a path of self-transcending spiritual practice and selfless service, in association with a community of spiritual practitioners and enlightened God-men. Such communities exist. I know because I’ve lived among them and participated in them.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 1:59 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Re Campbell and Mishlove conversation.

Wow wonderful thinking and questioning expressed here.

I also believe there will be a merging of science + spirituality. The quantum physics research, and it is being conducted by real scientists – is also amazing to me …and there are many scientists trying to seek answers and publishing their previous and present thinking and research results. Science could also be viewed as changing. Quantum physics is no longer as way out as it was once believed to be. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 2:19 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Glenn,Yes l can believe Christ was physically resurrected. However l don’t beleive this sets Christianity apart it could merge all religions together and Christ is a major figure of this bigger picture. Both inputs are required for balancing the other. LS

Have no idea who wrote the following but seems appropriate to me.

Always Create Your Own Dreams.

Dreams can come true

if you take the time to think

about what you want in life.

Get to know yourself.

Choose your goals carefully.

Find out what is important

to you. Don’t be afraid to

make mistakes.

Laugh and have a good time.

Open yourself up to love.

Live life to the fullest.

Create your own dreams and follow them until

they are a reality.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 3:21 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Living with said communities has obviously given you many personal postive effects IFF. Thank you for sharing with us.

Just thought l’d add this poem from Jeithard de Chardin –

Some day, after mastering

the winds,

the waves,

the tides and gravity,

we shall harness…

the energies of love.

And then, for the second time

in the history of the world,

we will have discovered fire.

(ps. in Chinese Five Elements the element of Fire is associated with Love + Joy and the Heart .. which is named the Emperor by the Chinese meridian energy system.) LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 7:03 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>LEE: Uncritical minds can make Jesus be whoever/whatever they want him to be, from the first communist, to the first feminist, to the>first enviromentalist, to a Platonic/Gnostic philosopher, to the Deist non-divine teacher of timeless moral truths, to a Buddhist/New Age ascended>master. All of these are views of Jesus people hold. They can’t all be right.

Actually they can be. Wait till you meet him, he won’t be what most people expect.




Posted on
June 20, 2009 7:07 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
News Flash!

Jesus is exactly who He claimed to be: God in human flesh who came to earth for the specific purpose of DYING for the sins of the world.

If He wasn’t who He said He was, then there are only two options left.

He was a lunatic, or a liar.

God Himself tells us in His Word exactly what we can EXPECT. If you don’t believe Him , He tells you what to expect for UNBELIEF as well.

Poor poor people.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 7:31 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually he didn’t, he claimed otherwise……At least in the sense you mean it.



Posted on
June 20, 2009 7:33 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan you are blinded by the god of this world and have joined the church of the ignorant brethren.

Another addition to the iggy list.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 7:39 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
You’re funny…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 8:11 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 20, 2009 8:40 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: That’s the whole point — you can’t understand Christ via the mind. Christ (as opposed to Jesus, the man) is the perfect Son, the universal Self, infinite consciousness, Buddha mind, Krishna consciousness, the all-pervading Christ consciousness that we all share with each other and with God. Jesus is the name we give to that fragment of the whole who remembered his identity as Christ and helps us do the same. Jesus taught a direct process of God communion. Unfortunately, what survives of his teaching today is his exoteric or public teaching. The secret, esoteric methods of God communion were only taught to his initiates, those in his inner circle, and those teachings have been largely lost over the centuries. So, esoteric practices such as meditation have fallen away from daily Christian life, and the true esoteric core of Christianity has been replaced with cultic beliefs about Jesus. Christians need to abandon their cult-like attachment to the mythology of Jesus and discover the true Christ via a path of self-transcending spiritual practice and selfless service, in association with a community of spiritual practitioners and enlightened God-men. Such communities exist. I know because I’ve lived among them and participated in them.

LEE: IFF, can you not see how you’re doing exactly what I described above? You’re squeezing Jesus into your preconceived mold. You’re squeezing the Jewish-Christian Jesus into a Buddhist mold. This is incorrect both theologically and historically.Jesus, the English form of the GK Iesous, which was itself the GK form for the Hebrew Yeshua, was an intinerant Jewish rabbi and the expected Jewish Messiah. Christ is the English form of the GK christous, which is the GK translation of the Hebrew masshiah.Meditation and other Easten practices were never a part of original Christianity because they were never a part of ancient Judaism. We don’t find them in Philo, or Josephus, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the Jewish apocryphal or pseueipigraphal texts. We don’t find them in the canonical NT gospels or letters, we don’t find them in late 1st century/early 2nd century texts like I Clement or The Didache, or mid-2nd century texts like Shepherd or Barnabas, we don’t find them in early-mid-2nd century fathers like Justin Martyr, or Ignatius, or Irenaeus, or in Athenagoras, or Origen, or Tertullian, or in 4th century fatrhers like Eusebius or Athanasius. We don’t find them in the mid-2nd century Christian apocryphal texts like The Infancy Gospel or The Protoevangelium. We don’t even find them in the heretical texts like the early-mid 2nd century proto-Gnostic Marcion’s edited NT canon, or in any of the mid-2nd century Nag Hammadi texts. We don’t find them in the Ebionite, or Arian, or Docetic texts, nor in the Manichean texts. So if, as you calim, all of these esoteric Eastern practices were expunged from Christianity, when did this happen and who did it? It had to have been before the year 100 AD. Because texts like I Clement and the Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), written ca. 90-100 AD, do not reflect any Easstern biases at all. But then it must also predate 55 AD, because in I Corithians, written in that year, Paul quotes a Christian creed dated to ca. 33-35 AD, which references Jesus’ death, burial and bodily resurrection, and subsequent appearances to over 513 Christians; nothing is said in this creed about karma, reincarnation, past life-recall, ascended masters, the Akashic Record, etc.. Which is odd, if those teachings were really a part of ancient Christianity, seeing as how creeds are short summaries of the essential teachings of a faith. If these Eastern beliefs were taught by the first Christians you’d think they’d have been included in this credal formula which dates to thre to five years after Jesus’ resurrection. So who expunged all of the Eastern practices out of Christianity and when did this editorial process take place?

And yes, Jesus did encourage people to use their minds:

Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ (Matt. 22:37)

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Mark 12:30)

He answered: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Luke 10:27)

He said to them, Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? (Luke 24:38)

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. (Rom. 8:5)

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and eace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Rom. 8:5-7)

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Rom. 12:2)

I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. (I Cor. 1:10)

For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (I Cor. 2:16)

So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. (I Cor. 14:16)

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (II Cor. 4:4)

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (II Cor. 11:3)

You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (Eph. 4:22-24)

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. (Col. 1:21)

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. (Col. 2:18)

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. (Col. 3:2)

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. (Tit. 1:15)

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. (Heb. 8:10)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. (I Pet. 1:13)

Then he [Jesus] opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. (Luke 24:45)

It seems Jesus and Paul had a lot to say about using our minds.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 9:17 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>LEE: IFF, can you not see how you’re doing exactly what I described above? You’re squeezing Jesus into your preconceived mold. You’re squeezing the>Jewish-Christian Jesus into a Buddhist mold. This is incorrect both theologically and historically.

Actually it isn’t.

>Meditation and other Easten practices were never a part of original Christianity because they were never a part of ancient Judaism.

Meditation and Prayer are two sides of the same coin, Both were designed to teach mindfulness.



Posted on
June 20, 2009 9:30 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Identity of the Messiah

The concept of the messiah seems to have developed in later Judaism. The Torah contains no specific reference to him, though some Jewish scholars have pointed out that it does speak of the End of Days, which is the time of the messiah.

The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.

Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.

Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel. In general, only the following passages are accepted as referring to the messiah:

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20

Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39

Ezekiel 38:16

Hosea 3:4-3:5

Micah 4

Zephaniah 3:9

Zechariah 14:9

Daniel 10:14

When Will the Messiah Come?

The when of the messiah’s arrival is not made clear in the Tanach, and has been a source of much scholarly speculation. In general, attempts to predict the exact date are discouraged. Though millennial fervor has never been as strong in Judaism as it has been in Christian and Islamic movements, there have been those who either claimed to be the messiah or to know the date of the messiah’s arrival. One notable example of the former is Shabbatai Tzvi, a 17th-century man who claimed to the messiah, then converted to Islam under threat of death.

A wide variety of opinions have been given by Jewish scholars as to the circumstances that will prompt the messiah’s arrival. Some say the messiah will come when the world is especially good; others say when the world has become especially evil. The biblical clues that are offered suggest the messiah will come after a period of war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16).

The Messianic Age

When the messiah does come, he will inaugurate the messianic age (sometimes called the Olam Ha-Ba, World to Come). The Tanakh employs the following descriptions about this period:

Peace among all nations (Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3)

Perfect harmony and abundance in nature (Isaiah 11:6-9) (but some interpret this as an allegory for peace and prosperity)

All Jews return from exile to Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5)

Universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)

No sin or evil; all Israel will obey the commandments (Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24)

Reinstatement of the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-27)Ezekiel 37:24-28 sums up many of these requirements when it proclaims:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow my judgments and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children’s children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their God and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

References

Tracey R. Rich, Messiah. Judaism 101.

George Robinson, Essential Judaism (Pocket Books, 2000).



Posted on
June 20, 2009 9:32 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Here are some of the points which demonstrate the blatant discrepancies and inconsistancies in the Missionaries’ arguments in favor of Jesus.

The Jewish Messiah is to be a mortal human being born to two mortal parents. He is neither to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. There is nothing in the Bible that states that the Messiah would be a god or God-like, or that he would be born to a virgin. The concept of the former contradicts the Jewish concept of God being above and beyond taking human form and limitations. Jews believe that only God should be worshipped, not a being of His creation, not even the Messiah himself. Besides, nowhere in the Bible is there any virgins giving birth. This idea is only found in pagan mythology, where virgins often bare offsping of gods. The only purpose of the concept of virgin birth is to attract pagans to Christianity.

The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews to the Holy Land, but Jesus lived while the Jews were still there before they were exiled by the Romans. How can he return them to their land if they were still living in it?

The Messiah is to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, but Jesus lived while the Temple was still standing.

The Bible states that the Messiah will redeem Israel, but 30 years after Jesus died, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were exiled by the Roman to suffer 1900 years of persecution, mostly by the followers of Jesus.

The Prophets of the Bible foretold that all the nations of the world will acknowlege and worship the one true God (Isaiah 11.9, 45, and Zephaniah 3), but nothing like this happened after Jesus died; in fact, Islam develpoed and became the religion of many nations while Christianity splintered into many sects which constantly fight each other, and almost two-thirds of the human race worships idols. The world is very far from monotheism even to this day.

The Messiah’s influence will extend to all who will worship God in the Jerusalem Temple. As the Prophet states, My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations. This has clearly not taken place yet; therefore, the Messiah hasn’t come yet.

A new spirit will fill the world man will no longer sin or commit crimes, especially the Jews (Deutteronomy 30: 6, Isaiah 60:21, Jeremiah 50:20, and Ezekiel 36:21). Soon after the days of Jesus, ignorance of God, science, and philosophy filled the earth, and the Dark Ages began.

If Jesus was God, why did he pray to and talk to himself?

The true Messiah will reign as King of the Jews. Jesus’ carrer as a wandering preacher and faith healer lasted only three years until he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal without any official postition or authority whatsoever.

One of the Messiah’s main tasks is to bring world peace by ending wars and arms manufacturing (Isaiah 2:4). Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars continue to be fought to this day.

Mark 13:30 and Matthew 4 states that the prophecies about the Messiah would take place during Jesus’ generation, but nothing was accomplished after 2,000 years.

Nohwere does the Bible say that the Messiah would come once, die, and return in a second coming. Such a concept was a Christian concept meant to rationalize Jesus’ failure to function in any way as the Messiah or fulfill the Hebrew Bible’s prophecies.

The Bible says that the Messiah would be descened from King David. If Jesus is the Son of God, how could he be descened from King David from his father’s side?

Missionaries constantly and deliberatly distort the meaning of the prophets’ words in order to substantiate their claims; for example, the Hebrew term in Isaiah , almah means young woman, not virgin. Honest Christian scholars now admit this is a pious fraud, and they translate the word correctly in the Reverse Standard Version of the Bible.

If Jesus’ raising from the dead was so important to demonstrate who he was, why did it take place in secret instead of in the presence of his thousands’ of followers?

Jesus claimed that he didn’t intend to change the laws of Moses (Matthew 5), but he later abrogated some of the laws, and his followers later abolished or changed nearly all of them; for example, Christians still eat pork and fail to celebrate Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanna despite what the Torah says. The Torah constantly says that its laws are eternal, and they can’t be abolished or changed.

Judaism believes that God is eternal, above, and beyond time. He can’t be born, die, suffer, become flesh, or be divivded into sections (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).

If Jesus was the Messiah, why does the New Testiment admit that not one of the rabbis of the time accept his claim? Why did all the educated men and prominent men reject him?

If Jesus was the Messiah, why did most of his own people, the Jews of that time, reject him, including his own family? Why did his followers consist almost completely of a handful of poorly educated people?

Jesus ordered his followers to preach to the Jews only, not the Gentiles (Matthew 10), but his followers did the exact opposite. He clearly considered himself th Messiah of the Jews only, but he is accepted by foreign nations, and not the Jews.

The purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all the Jews will observe the Torah and to teach it to all humankind who will accept its truths. Nowhere in the Torah does it state that the Messiah will abolish it. The Torah is eternal.

Nowhere in the Torah does it state that forgivness of a person’s sins can be brought about by someone else’s death. Each man isaccountable for his own sins, and each man must repent of his own sins by changing his ways and seeking God’s forgiveness.

Matthew 1 and Luke 3 both give different accounts of Jesus being descended from King David through his father Joseph.

If Jesus was the Son of God, why did he say on the cross, My God, my God, why did thou foresake me? instead of My Father?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 9:38 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEE

Is this really YOU? You said You cant understand CHRIST via the mind??

The all pervading Christ Conciousness that we all share with each other and GOD???

OH WAIT that is IFF post YOU are RECREATING!!!! SORRY

IFF YOU are 1000% right ON!

LEE Ok to you know JESUS the english form of the GK Iesous, Im a Little Ignorant I tought JESUS was the Latin Translation

am I wrong, And in HEBREW Masshiah is a little incorrect it is MASHIACH pronounced MAW_SHEE_ACH I see you are back to your scholarly ways Quoting dead Christiann Authors, and Christian CREED, Basically Church taught doctrine

Nothing is said in the creed about Karma ,Reincarnation,past life recall ascenden masters yaa daa YOURE WORDS

ME, LEE Do not attempt to CONFUSE the Issue of REINCARNATION by throwing in NEW AGE CONCEPTS

such as KARMA past life recall ascended masters in order to get Mainstream Christianity on your SIDE

The thread was only to REINCARNATION As showed You before many Examples of reincarnation in the Bible which you did not understand

reducing the Spiritual Word of God and His CHRIST

Down to the rational reasonable understanding of MEN

Simply said THE CONCEPT of REINCARNATION IS MENTIONED IN MANY VERSES IN THE OT AND NT

But YOU dont understand what actually is Reincarnation!

No it was NOT TAUGHT, per say, I will not Post all the Scriptural Evidence WHY?

If one does not have the Spiritual Conciousness Necessary to understand the Word of GOD

asd Jesus said IF I tell you of Earthly things, and you do not understand!!How than can I tell you of HEAVENLY THINGS???

LEE simply said 1 PETER 1;3 Jesus Christ who according to his abundant mercy HAS BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto yaada

Begotten is Born into flesh Generated, Strongs #313 anagennao to Beget, Bear

also strongs #1080 gennano To regenerate,be born ,bring forth

BEGOTTEN, is all of the above translations BRING FORTH , AGAIN is A second time When a SOUL/CONCIOUSNESS is brought AGAIN into FORM This is REINCARNATION

The concept of JOHN 3;3 BORN AGAIN is reincarnation

But as Nicodemus could not understand, Neither can/does Mainstream Christianity

Ressurection is also Reincarnation If Flesh and BLOOD does not go to heaven As Paul Says

Resurection is of the SOUL for the body will be Dead, Then the NEW BODY/FORM

which Christians will recieve as they JOIN JESUS in the 1000 years on Earth This new body you will RECIEVE means REINCARNATION

Does that not MAKE SENSE TO YOU…Yes Man is ,,I acknowledge Scripture MAN WILL DIE ONCE But you are not that Conciousness

You ARE IMMORTAL SOUL! The SOUL that You Are is what REINCARNATES,,Know You not that YOU are an Immortal Spirit!

The body that you have has nothing to do

With WHO or What YOU ARE!

Peace ALLFAARAA

PETER Is thanking GOD and JESUS for REGENERATING the APOSTLES AGAIN Into the KINGDOM of GOD..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 9:39 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

You are blinded by the GOD of this world!

And by the Fourth Member of the Trinity!

LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 10:23 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva……And:

I love you like a stream

flows restless to the sea

see you like the mist

touches clouds, touches me

See you in the stars

whereever you may be

I think of you

think of you

If ever you’re near

and have some time to spend

I love you every way

love you like a friend

And then when you leave

a whisper in my mind

I think of you

think of you

When I see a bird

fly over to the sea

and the sun in the sky

is shining warm and free

And when I feel the wind

blow cool over me

I think of you

think of you



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 11:37 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
I also think they can, if we can find the common goals/good between all of them, and by trying to look at it in a totally new way. After all we are ALL as one.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 11:47 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
News Flash!

Anything IS POSSIBLE in this World – as that favourite old saying goes. As long as we remain OPEN to the changes AND if we are willing to work towards the greatest good. Everything does change and evolve. IT IS THE NATURAL WAY OF THE WORLD. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 11:50 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Have you ever read Stranger in a Strange Land?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 1:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 20, 2009 1:25 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Alfaara, all you did was rip several passages out of their contextts and interpret them literally in order to prove that the Bible teaches reincarnation. In exegetical circles that is called prooftexting, and by doing it one can make the Bible say anything one wants it to.

Jesus is the English trans. of the Latin Jesu, which corresponds to the GK Iesous. Iesous is GK for the Hebrew Yeshua. Messiah is the Eng. trans. of the Hebrew Mashiach (which I misspelled before). Christ is simply GK for messiah.

Begotten is the GK word gennao, Strong’s number G1080. It means:

1) of men who fathered children

a) to be born

b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to children

2) metaph.

a) to engender, cause to arise, excite

b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone

c) of God making Christ his son

d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work

Born again is the GK word anagennao, Strong’s number 313, and it means:

1) to produce again, be born again, born anew

2) metaph. to have one’s mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

As you can see these words have more than one definition. Therefore you have to be guided by the CONTEXT of the different passages to know which definition is intended. b and d are the definitions of born again that apply in the passages you referenced. It also helps to use a more accurate, modern translation, such as the NRSV or NIV. Paul says Christ is begotten and the first-born of God. A literal interpretation of begotten and first-born would have Jesus being born from God, which is impossible since a) God is spirit and can’t father children and b) Christ is God’s Logos, or Word, his divine Wisdom or Reason, personified, the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity. The human part of Jesus was born of Mary, but the God part of him was/is eternal and preexistent. I Peter 1:3 in the NIV says:Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. . .Peter links our new birth to Jesus’ bodily resurrection. Nothing is said about reincarnation. Christianity ALWAYS talks about resurrection, never reincarnation. And when it talks about resurrection, it refers to the past event of Jesus’ bodily resurrection, which prefigures believers’ future bodily resurrections. According to the New Testament, we die ONCE, then face the judgment of God, and then faithful followers of Christ get their resurrection bodies. God will recreate the earth as it was before the fall, where Christ will reign on earth with his bodily resurrected saints. This is a one-off event, not a repeat occurence.

When Paul says, in I Corinthians 15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, he uses flesh and blood to refer to our fallen, mortal bodies, driven by our sinful desires. He is clear that we will receive a physical, though glorious, resurrection body that WILL inherit the kingdom of heaven, which always refers to God’s rule over the earth.Paul uses the words sarx Strong’s number G453, for flesh and haima Strong’s number 129, for blood.

Sarx is defined variously as:

1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

2) the body

a) the body of a man

b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship

1) born of natural generation

c) the sensuous nature of man, the animal nature

1) without any suggestion of depravity

2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin

3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

C is the definition Paul has in mind in I Corinthians 15.

Haima means:

1) blood

a) of man or animals

b) refers to the seat of life

c) of those things that resemble blood, grape juice

2) blood shed, to be shed by violence, slay, murder

So, again, Paul is saying that no mortal controlled by their sinful animal desires will get to live in God’s kingdom, his rule over the earth, which Jesus in the gospels indicates is both present and future, and in a sense also inside us. Its already come, but not totally. We won’t see it totally come until Jesus’ return.

In Romans 8 Paul is very clear that our mortal bodies will be redeemed, along with the rest of creation:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. . . . I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Alfaara, you HAVE TO read/interpret these passages in their proper literary and theological context. You can’t simply interpret them literally and then assign a preconceived meaning to them.

Reincarnation is not, nor was it ever, taught by Jesus or any of his apostles.

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
June 20, 2009 1:30 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Lee is absolutely correct.

Reincarnation is not, nor was it ever, taught by Jesus or any of his apostles.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 20, 2009 8:46 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Incorrect……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 2:37 AM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
It’s vey faddish nowadays to assert, like Elaine Pagels, Bart Erhman and a few others like the Jesus Seminar Fellows, that there were all these alternative Christianities floating around in the first, second and third centuries, and that there really was no one true version of Christianity until the church fathers or Constantine or whoever persecuted the Gnostics into non-existence and made orthodox Christianity the one true view. But again, this is the minority view among scholars, and for which there’s little evidence.

How many variations of Christianity are around today? Are you saying it was impossible for people back then to have had many different forms of Christianity?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 3:37 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 6:39 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
AND people are born again with new views on the meaning of life….without actually dying! This could be viewed as soul development and creates further spiritual development … could it not? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 6:51 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually the born again in this case is not a reference to incarnation, but more a reference to ‘waking’ up or coming to life, ottherwise you are just one of the dead, or a zombie.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 6:53 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>AND people are born again with new views on the meaning of life….without actually dying!

That would be essentially correct, except before that you were one of the dead 9as in Jesus ‘Let the dead bury the dead’.

And it’s part of the development process.



Posted on
June 21, 2009 7:33 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 21, 2009 9:04 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 9:22 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 21, 2009 9:22 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Well as He/She told me:

To your common sense firm arguments I won’t listen to your voice of reason trying to change my mind. I mind my feelings and not your words. Didn’t you notice I’m so headstrong even when I know I’m wrong? Take this to your heart and into your head now: before you waste your time, call a truce and call a draw. What’s the use in mapping your views out in orderly form when it does nothing but confuse and anger me more? I mind my feelings and not your words. Didn’t you notice I’m so headstrong. You’re talking to a deaf stone wall. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives’ tale is true, I’ll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that’s how the famous saying goes. Open up your eyes, see me for what I am: cast in iron, I won’t break and I won’t bend. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives’ tale is true, I’ll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that’s how the famous saying goes. If I told you we were out to sea in a bottomless boat, you’d try anything to save us, you’d try anything to keep us afloat. And if we were living in a house afire, I don’t believe that you could rush out and escape it and not rescue me. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives’ tale is true, I’ll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that’s how the famous saying goes. Listen, I think they were talking to you.



Posted on
June 21, 2009 9:27 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan,

What an apt description of the lost man who has set himself in opposition to God.

How very sad.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 9:48 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 21, 2009 10:38 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
He didn’t particularly mind the argument and we came to an understanding (or maybe I should say I cam to understand the reasons He has things the way they are), and as He/She stated at a later date:

I want somebody to share

Share the rest of my life

Share my innermost thoughts

Know my intimate details

Someone who’ll stand by my side

And give me support

And in return

She’ll get my support

She will listen to me

When I want to speak

About the world we live in

And life in general

Though my views may be wrong

They may even be perverted

She’ll hear me out

And won’t easily be converted

To my way of thinking

In fact she’ll often disagree

But at the end of it all

She will understand me

Aaaahhhhh….

I want somebody who cares

For me passionately

With every thought and

With every breath

Someone wholl help me see things

In a different light

All the things I detest

I will almost like

I dont want to be tied

To anyones strings

I’m carefully trying to steer clear of

Those things

But when I’m asleep

I want somebody

Who will put their arms around me

And kiss me tenderly

Though things like this

Make me sick

In a case like this

I’ll get away with it

Aaaahhhhh….

So yes, lost, but not in the way you’d like to presume…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 12:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 21, 2009 12:36 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
….or how very wise. But then l cannot see any opposition to God in Byan’s poetry, only the journey, which is the same in essence for all of us. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 1:45 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 21, 2009 1:49 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
CHARLIERITZ: How many variations of Christianity are around today?Are you saying it was impossible for people back then to have had many different forms of Christianity?

LEE: No, what we’re saying is there’s only ONE orthodox, authentic interpretation of who/what Jesus is. There were variant forms of Christian belief in the first century. For example, Paul, John and Jude all warn about a kind of Docetic, or pre-Gnosticism which taught that Jesus wasn’t physically incarnated in the world-his body, hence his death and resurrection, were all illusions. And Paul warns against some Corinthians who thought the resurrection had already occurred, in a spiritual, non-bodily way. Then there were the folks at Antioch and Galatia telling the Greek converts they had to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses BEFORE they could follow Jesus. All of these warped views were denounced as heresies.

So yeah, variant interpretations of Jesus and Christianity existed, but that doesn’t mean they were all valid, as Pagels, King, Erhman, et. al. like to argue. There WAS an orthodox view, from which these early heresies, and the later ones (Ebionites, Marcionites, Gnostics, Arians, etc.) deviated.

Pagels, Ehrman, etc., reinterpret ancient Christianity through their relativistic, post-modern, anti-Fundamentalist biases.

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
June 21, 2009 4:31 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
When God tells you that you are LOST without HIS solution…then, my friend, you are truly LOST. No presumptions necessary.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 5:49 PM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
LEE: No, what we’re saying is there’s only ONE orthodox, authentic interpretation of who/what Jesus is.

Why do the Gospels tell different versions of how Jesus died? That is sullen v.s. peaceful, forsaken v.s. deilivered?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 6:07 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Hi, Charlie

I personally believe that the Gospels tell different versions of how Jesus died because everyone has a way of seeing things differently, even when they’re witnessing the same event. One person may add something to the story that the other neglected to see. Also, one person may offer a different interpretation or view point to what they saw. Usually, when there’s been a crime, detectives try finding more than one witness. One may have seen something that the other didn’t.

I believe this is why there is no one perfect way of interpreting the Bible. Some scripture doesn’t resound with one person, while it will with another. I don’t believe God deals with each one of us as a whole generically. God speaks and works with us depending on our level of maturity, and at the stage of life in which we currently are. He doesn’t work with two different people in the same way.



Posted on
June 21, 2009 6:17 PM PDT

Eirini says:
CharlieRitz,

I very interested to read what Lee has to say, if he has a response to your question. I have appreciated your writing here, Lee.

I don’t recall any account saying Jesus was sullen. He went willingly to His death. The forsaken aspect is actually pointing toward Psalm 21 (22) which is prophetic of His crucifixion all that took place. There weren’t chapters and verses then, so to refer to a place in the scripture the first line would be recited. Genesis, for example, is In the beginning God made heaven and earth. So, when He says My God, why have you forsaken me? he is starting that Psalm.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 6:24 PM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
I don’t recall any account saying Jesus was sullen.

I don’t think the word sullen was ever used, but there is a noticable difference between taking your beatings and making it to the hill, in one piece, barely, and addressing women on the side of the road, imploring them not to weep over him.

Sullen may not have been the best, or right word, but it illustrates the dichotomy of the different gospels.



Posted on
June 21, 2009 6:26 PM PDT

Eirini says:
Ah, okay



In reply to an earlier post on
June 21, 2009 6:33 PM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
Rosita,

Appreciate the response. I agree with what you said, but you can keep going down that rabbit hole.

Be prepared, it may not be what you expect to find though.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 2:22 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Rosita,

Yes l totally agree with you on, He doesn’t work with twp people in the same way. He works through us all…and at at individual level. Which suggests that we need to learn to know ourself, faults and all, because nobody is perfect. But change is possible, if we want to, and this process can release our own personal fears – which could be viewed as holding us back. LS

One may not

reach the dawn

save by the path of the night. (Kahil Gibran)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 6:02 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:10 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 7:29 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>LEE: No, what we’re saying is there’s only ONE orthodox, authentic interpretation of who/what Jesus is.To reiterate one of my points:All You ZombiesHoly Moses met the PharaohYeah, he tried to set him straightLooked him in the eye, let my people goHoly Moses on the mountainHigh above the golden calfWent to get the Ten CommandmentsHe’s just gonna break them in halfAll you zombies hide your facesAll you people in the streetAll you sittin’ in high placesThe pieces gonna fall on youNo one ever spoke to NoahThey all laughed at him insteadWorking on his ark, working all by himselfOnly Noah saw it comingForty days and forty nightsTook his sons and daughters with himYeah they were the IsraelitesAll you zombies hide your facesAll you people in the streetAll you sittin’ in high placesThe rain’s gonna fall on youHoly Father, what’s the matterWhere have all your children goneSitting in the dark, living all by themselvesYou don’t have to hide anymoreAll you zombies show your faces…

Or in other words, the orthodox view has always been wrong in spiritual matters. Same thing for science.

And the Holy Spirit doesn’t care for fundamentalists…….they always get fragged….



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 7:31 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Been a long time since I’ve read Gibran……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 7:32 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Jesus is still working on the perfection part, and everybody has their own goal as to what perfection is to them.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 12:22 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Just another thought to ponder …maybe.

If we step back from us and all the details, facts, examples we do all love to apply, including me! What are Jesus’s larger messages to us that we can’t really miss – or the crux of his teachings? Or Christ or Budda or Zen or God come to think of it? What are the similarities? Just wondering what people think about this? Maybe it needs a different discussion? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 12:32 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
One of my possible ‘job’ choices in this life was writing a book showing the similarities between the different religions, and it’s one reason I studied them in part and the mythologies. And did a quick review once I ‘woke’ up.

Matter of fact that’s when i asked about reincarnation in the bible and in islam 9found the first, not so much the later, but than they are still people of the ‘Book’ so the bible still applies to them).

Turned down the job, decided it was stupid> My reasoning was that if i could find out anybody else could find the same things I did, so i’d jst be preaching to the choir. Anybody else who couldn’t realize it, wasn’t ready yet and it wouldn’t matter.

Although I think there are some books that do some comparisons.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 12:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 22, 2009 12:34 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

I like that ..Fundamentalists Always get FRAGGED ha!

Bryan is that another one of you songs?? It seems to ring a bell in my head ?

ALF



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 12:39 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 22, 2009 12:40 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: Meditation and other Easten practices were never a part of original Christianity because they were never a part of ancient Judaism.

IFF: Why do you think that Jesus was limited to that which had existed in Judaism? Jesus brought a new message. He taught many things publicly, but he also gave certain esoteric teachings and practices privately. All spiritual teachers do this. The reason is simply that certain types of knowledge can be dangerous for those who are not ready to receive it, or who would use the knowledge unwisely. (For example, I’ve known of individuals who violated clear instructions with regard to their spiritual practices, with the result that they usually suffered some sort of mental breakdown.) Therefore, esoteric knowledge is traditionally only given out only to initiates, or those in the inner circle, with the instruction to keep the knowledge secret. This certainly would have been the case with Jesus’ disciples. They were given the keys to the kingdom — the esoteric teachings which give the direct experience of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, when the religion of Christianity was formed, much of the esoteric teachings of Christ were lost or suppressed.

Lee: So if, as you calim, all of these esoteric Eastern practices were expunged from Christianity, when did this happen and who did it?

IFF: The esoteric teachings of Jesus were lost largely because they were secret teachings, not meant to be shared with the general public. The New Testament is essentially a public manual of instruction. And it was created by the public cult of Jesus that became the official Church of the Roman Empire. Therefore, the esoteric teaching and practice was separated from the official institution, and it was eventually lost.

Lee: And yes, Jesus did encourage people to use their minds…

IFF: I never said otherwise. However, God is not known via the mind, but through the direct experience of the Holy Spirit in a state of inner stillness. This communion with the Holy Spirit brings the signs of bliss, inner peace, and universal love of ecstatic absorption in the Divine Beloved.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:02 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:07 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Laura, you may want to google {quantum physics and reincarnation}.

When it comes to merging of science + spirituality, there is no need for that in Indian philosophy/religion (they never split/conflict), as for the middle-eastern dogmas, there is no hope for that.

Like many of their myths, ancient Jews ‘borrowed’ the bodily resurrection idea from Egyptians. Rather than looking for reincarnation in the bible/torah, you may want to try to find answer in them to an even more fundamental question: What is soul?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:17 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
AMAZING

Just read the last two days posts and most everybody is talking about something different

except Bryan he is still songwriting Back to the origional post LAURA made last week REINCARNATIONI give you all SPIRITUAL DEFINITIONS and BIBLICAL VERSES as to REINCARNATION

and LEE reduces them down to METAPHORS Ok Reincarnation may have not been taught in the BIBLE

Because it didnt NEED to be TAUGHT, they all UNDERSTOOD IT, The BIBLE also did not teach anyone HOW TO WASH CLOTHES, noir MAKE SUPPER,etc etc

Ok so here is another example of REINCARNATION in the BIBLE this example will go straight to REASON

so all you so called BIBLICAL scholars through REASON YOU SHOULD be able get this ONE!

Warning this definintion of REINCARNATION takes no Spiritual Understanding of SCRIPTURE

Romans7;9 For I(Paul) was ALIVE apart from the LAW once,but when the Commandment camesin revived and I DIED….

Ok so obviously Paul is speaking so he is not DEAD..If Paul WAS ALIVE APART FROM THE law he would have to have been In the BODY or A SPIRIT, before MOSES delivered the LAW NO?

He was born Jewish of the tribe of Benjamin YAADA YAADA Under Law all his LIFE,NO?

When Moses delivered the LAW Sin revived and HE (PAUL) Died

That could be Death or Spiritual Death, Either way IF he was ALIVE before MOSES and DIED when the LAW CAME(Spiritual DEATH) THAT WAS Around 1000 years before He is Speaking to Us through SCRIPTURE in around 50 CE

How is it he is ALIVE IN FLESH at that TIME??

So how can this BE? Reincarnation, VOODO, A METAPHOR?? Another Parable

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:22 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Yes, All you Zombies by the Hooters

Because Spirit often talks to me in (from Possession by Sarah McLachlan – for me a discussion between myself and spirit):

Through this world I’ve stumbled

so many times betrayed,

Trying to find an honest word,

to find the truth enslaved,

Oh you speak to me in riddles

and you speak to me in rhyme

My body aches to breathe your breath,

you words keep me alive,



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:23 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
As Jesus put it, babyfood…….



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:25 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>What is soul?

Primal energy/Chaos energy. But also consisting of ‘components’ at least when in the flesh.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:27 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Lee doesn’t believe in the Bible, Jesus or the Spirit, just some guy named Wright who’s wrong…..(LOL)(excise me, couldn’t resist)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:36 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 1:43 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually it does.

At least when I ‘asked’ I got shown two passages that applied to reincarnation (and I think it was Alfaara or someone else who posted even more that probably apply), and the two examples I was shown involved Jesus being asked.

(someone else just reposted them recently too – reference to John as Elijah, and then the blind man)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 2:17 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 2:19 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on June 23, 2009 10:06 AM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 2:38 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
What is SOUL

and in addition to;

It is The Conciousness of who/what You really ARE, experiencing in FORM

simplified version



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 2:51 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Paul,

Huh? The knowledge I’m talking about would probably not have been written down. Initiation was typically an oral tradition, communicated in secret.

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables Mark 4:11



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 4:53 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

Exorcise ME??



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 5:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 22, 2009 5:19 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Paul

Casey? I thought it was Crowley?

Just kiding ,BOTH had the same VIEW,BRYAN you are correct as to Reincarnation refferences there are many, I left the Elijah/John example alone AKH likes that one.

I have posted about 13 examples of reincarnation in the NTI left the OT out since Christians are not part of ISRAEL,And do not REINCARNATE along/IN the same manner or Frequency But as YOU know this is to Complicated to explain Here!

I felt allthough the Elijah/John reincarnation point is Clear there is scripture which also gives room to DEBATE

this example as to What JESUS was really saying,

I didnt post the blind man REFF, there are many I left out.. WHY BOTHER ?

People in HELL are begging to REINCARNATE!!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 22, 2009 5:04 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
I thought it was DOG HAMMADIRight ?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 12:14 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Dogmatoxin,

Yes thanks, already looked at quantum physics/reincarnation. Don’t agree with the no need for Indian/religion…. part however.

The what is the soul? question is brilliant though! But then l have my own details for that. Will wait and see what others are thinking..as of course l could be mistaken! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 12:29 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Yes agree with you there Bryan. My soul components are straight from Steiner, who descibes attributes of the souls as thinking, feeling and willing.

Feelings always come after a thought, and are probably what we are most aware of. Thoughts can however be illogical! And Willingness comes from us to act differently perhaps – or make more of an effort in our personal relationship to inner work, thus affecting our outer actions. LS

These 3 concepts make us human do they not? And also why we all make errors. They are powerful human components/forces. Therefore this could be seen as aspects of our developing soul? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 5:47 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Alfaara, oh thats a cracking desciption of the soul! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 9:54 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Alfaara,

Just thinking, your comment – about people mostly talking about something else and was wondering why we were doing this. There are so many different types of replies and questions!

Maybe because we are all trying to explain our beliefs back to ourself – as a justification for having them in the first place? Even if someone we care for – let alone a stranger, tells us their whole life story, we would not understand really, because we haven’t personally lived through those experiences… and all this entails. We could maybe recognise ourself in parts of it and feel empathy – but we can never understand what it is like to be the other person. The same applies to our personal beliefs then. No matter how hard you try you are never going to really get it. Therefore everyone is correct for themselves then …but this too will alter over time. LS

( Have no idea for a reference for this – must have read about it, or heard about it from someone + sounds like Eastern wisdom!)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 10:22 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually I’d make that Mind, Will and Spirit right now in my experience.

Spirit being what we receive in part from our parents and give to our children.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 10:26 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 23, 2009 10:28 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Allfaaraa, you don’t understand the texts you’re quoting. You’re interpreting these texts literally.

For example, you hafta read the context of Romans 7 to understand verse 9. Paul is NOT talking about reincarnation. In Romans, Paul is writing to a Church comprised partly of converted Jews. He is writing to tell them that Christians cannot be saved by following the Hebraic Torah, the Law of Moses. Allfaaraa, I really think it would help you to use a translation other than the KJV. Here’s the relevant passage fromn the NIV, which is a more accurate translation and uses more modern language:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, Do not covet. But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. Now here it is in Pastor Eugene Petersen';s excellent paraphrase The Message:

Don’t you remember how it was? I do, perfectly well. The law code started out as an excellent piece of work. What happened, though, was that sin found a way to pervert the command into a temptation, making a piece of forbidden fruit out of it. The law code, instead of being used to guide me, was used to seduce me. Without all the paraphernalia of the law code, sin looked pretty dull and lifeless, and I went along without paying much attention to it. But once sin got its hands on the law code and decked itself out in all that finery, I was fooled, and fell for it. The very command that was supposed to guide me into life was cleverly used to trip me up, throwing me headlong. So sin was plenty alive, and I was stone dead. But the law code itself is God’s good and common sense, each command sane and holy counsel. Thus you can see here that no mention of past lives or reincarnation is made. Paul’s point is that the Law of Moses was given for a reason-to show us our sinfulness and our need for a savior-Jesus.

As I said, the whole point of Romans is to teach salvation by grace through faith, not by the Jewish Law of Moses.

If you are ignorant of, or ignore, the context of such biblical texts you can make the Bible teach absolutely anything. And people have literally been doing it for centuries.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 11:30 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

It seems to me that the crux of your argument is that your interpretation (against reincarnation being present in the Bible) is correct because most scholars agree with you. However, these scholars were raised in a Western culture and exposed to traditional Christianity, and so they have been conditioned to have certain beliefs about death and the afterlife. It really comes down to who one wants to trust — scholars who have studied religion intellectually, or those who speak from their own spiritual experiences. I have read both, and frankly, I find those who speak from their own experiences to be more authentic and persuasive. In addition, I have my own set of experiences, specifically, ever since I was a child I had clear memories which appear to be from past lives. Some of these memories I didn’t even understand until I was older. I think that the reason there is so much confusion and disagreement with regard to spiritual truth is that there is an unfortunate lack of genuine spiritual experience and higher religious consciousness among the majority of religious practitioners. The religious consciousness of Westerners is trapped within an archaic structure of myths, dogmas, and social conflicts that no longer serve the true religious and spiritual process. We cannot awaken to our evolutionary spiritual destiny until the spell of mythological and self-possessed thinking is broken. Large-scale institutional religion is not primarily a benign power in the world. We have only to look at the cultural and political conflicts in the U.S., Europe, and the Middle East to see how the immense institutions of ancient religion have now become, for the most part, contentious, absolutist, and the sources of petty social conflicts. And the problem is made extreme by the immensity of these institutions, each of which controls millions of people. At a young age, my intuitive sense of the failure of traditional religion caused me to reject it and seek out authentic spiritual experience in non-establishment spiritual groups and teachings. Over time, certain ideas began to emerge which seem to be universal, even within traditional religion when it is understood correctly. One of these is reincarnation — the notion that we must repeat the experience of earthly incarnation until we come to a point of liberation from attachment to materiality and bodily identification. However, belief in reincarnation is not essential. It is not consoling, or in any way a resolution to our suffering. In the midst of an endless dance of births and deaths, throughout the infinity of time and universes, we must love. To move beyond our mortal dilemma, we must embrace love itself without limit. Our ultimate destiny is to grow beyond all limited conditions, to realize our birthless and deathless Self-nature. This destiny is consciousness itself, love itself.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 12:51 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: Lee doesn’t believe in the Bible, Jesus or the Spirit, just some guy named Wright who’s wrong…..(LOL)(excise me, couldn’t resist)

LEE: On the contrary, Lee believes in accurate, responsible biblical exegesis.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 1:00 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Like I said you don’t believe in the spirit, just the dead.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 1:27 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFeelFree,

Thankyou. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 1:43 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee,It seems to me that the crux of your argument is that your interpretation (against reincarnation being present in the Bible) is correct because most scholars agree with you. However, these scholars were raised in a Western culture and exposed to traditional Christianity, and so they have been conditioned to have certain beliefs about death and the afterlife. It really comes down to who one wants to trust — scholars who have studied religion intellectually, or those who speak from their own spiritual experiences. I have read both, and frankly, I find those who speak from their own experiences to be more authentic and persuasive. In addition, I have my own set of experiences, specifically, ever since I was a child I had clear memories which appear to be from past lives. Some of these memories I didn’t even understand until I was older. I think that the reason there is so much confusion and disagreement with regard to spiritual truth is that there is an unfortunate lack of genuine spiritual experience and higher religious consciousness among the majority of religious practitioners. The religious consciousness of Westerners is trapped within an archaic structure of myths, dogmas, and social conflicts that no longer serve the true religious and spiritual process. We cannot awaken to our evolutionary spiritual destiny until the spell of mythological and self-possessed thinking is broken.

LEE: My argument is based on several factors. Firstly, Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of ancient Judaism. You can track this claim through the New Testament down through the centuries to today. Ancient 2nd Temple Judaism did not believe in reincarnation. It believed that YHWH would vindicate Israel, drive out the Romans and reestablish the Davidic monarchy. Then, at the final inauguration of his kingdom, YHWH would recreate the heavens and the earth and bodily resurrect alll his faithful to live on thatrecreated earth, the earth as it was before the fall.Christianity can ONLY be understood within the context of the ancient 2nd Temple Judaism out of which it sprang. 2nd Temple Judaism knew NOTHING about reincarnation. Find it in the Torah. Not there! In the Ketuvim. Not there! In the Maccabees. It’s not there! In Baruch. Not there! In Wisdom. Not there! In Philo. Not there! In Josephus. Not there! In the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). Not there! Any belief in a version of reincarnation was a later, post 70 AD belief foreign to the Judaism of Jesus. WQe know from the gospels why Jesus was executed by the Romans at the behest of the Sanhedrin, and it wasn’t for teaching reincarnation. Jesus was an observant Jew whose theology was similar in many respects to the Pharisees-who believed you died once and then got bodily resurrected. Jesus got executed for blasphemy-claiming to BE YHWH incarnate. He claimed to be the Jewish Messiah with a twist most Jews weren’t expecting-that Messiah would also be God incarnate. In nearly every other major way Jesus was an observant Jew. And again, orthodox first century 2nd Temple Judaism knew nothing about reincarnation.My views on ancient 2nd Temple Judaism and early Christianity are informed from a reading of the primary texts, like Baruch, Josephus, the canonical gospels, the early fathers, etc., then by the commentary of scholars who spend their entire lives objectively studying ancient Judaism and Christianity. Such scholars of necessity cannot allow themselves to be blinded by anything so subjective as experience. They have to stick to facts. And the fact is that at no time did either ancient Judaism or ancient Christianity ever teach reincarnation in any way, shape or form.Because experience is subjective. How do you know your experience is genuine, or valid? You have no objective standard by which it can be measured. Thus, if one is ruled by one’s experience, one can deo, say and believe anything one wants. Because one’s own self is the final arbiter of truth. Truth thus becomes relative. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is whateever I believe or perceive it to be. But this is NOT how orthodox nd Christianity view Truth. Truth is an objective reality that exists outside and independent of, me the observer.

For example take a movie. Two people, me and my date Lori, see a movie. Her experience of the film is that it was awful and my experience of the exact same film is that it was awesome. Well, you’re both right, a post-modernist New-Ager would say. Which might be fine for a movie. But with religion, with knowing whether or not a god even exists, and if he/she/it does, what he/she/it requires of humans, I personally wouldn’t like to leave to pure experiential feelings, which I know from personal experience can mislead me. What I experience as love for me, might not be. What I experience as hatred, such as when I experienced feelings that told me my sixth-grade teacher had it in for me, in this case turned out not to be.For example, I might believe or perceive that my computer keyboard is a toaster. But my perception would be FALSE, because my keyboard is not, ijn fact, a toaster. My beliefs or perceptions are irrelevant. My keboard is what it is. A keynboard. That’s how ancient Christianity and Judiasm perceived Truth. It wasn’t relative or subjective.This is why I reject the idea that our religious beliefs should be guided solely, or even primarily, on subjective experiential criteria. The New Testament texts don’t approach Truth in such a relativistic, subjective, experiential manner, neither did the ancient Jewish texts.Can you imagine telling someone to buy an insurance policy based solely or primarily upon experiential feelings? I can’t.Now, I’m not saying experience is bad, only that it can’t be the sole or primary basis of our knowledge of the Divine, because experience can be misleading.As for large-scale institutional religion, and its negative effects, the fault lies, not with the message, cetainly of Judaism and Christianity, but with the very flawed, often warped, occasionally evil interpretation of that message that people try to spread.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 1:53 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 23, 2009 1:58 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: Like I said you don’t believe in the spirit, just the dead.

LEE: I believe in the Spirit, I just believe what the New Testament says about the Spirit. The Spirit will not lead me into a subjective, inacNurate, subjective, interpretation that violates the original meaning intended by the author of a text. As I said to IFF Truth is not subjective or relative. A passage of scripture, say, I Corinthians 15:3-7, written by Paul in 55 AD to the Church at Corinth, and consisting of an early Christian credal statement, dated by scholars to ca. 33-35 AD, can’t mean one thing to one reader, and another, totally different thing, to another reader. Anymore that you could interpret Lincoln’s Getttysburg Address in such a subjective manner. Scripture interpretation in Christianity and Judaism isn’t a free-for-all where where anybody can make any scripture say whatever they want it to, so long as they claim The Holy Spirit told me. It doesn’t work that way. That’s not how Jesus or the early Church interpreted scripture. Its a subjective, post-modernist, Protestant interpretation that usually causes more harm than good. You can’t interpret scripture in such a relativistic, subjective way any more than a neuro-surgeon could interpret his surgical textbook in a subjective, relativistic way. Can you imagine a surgeon about to perform major surgery, saying about the relevant chapter in a medical textbook: Well, what this verse means to ME is that . . .

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
June 23, 2009 2:14 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Slowing Down to The Speed of Life-how to create a more peaceful, simpler life from the inside out. (Richard Carlson +Joseph Bailey, 1998)

Just thought this was a good place to put in here. Talking about thoughts not anything spiritual by the way, and apparently we can use 2 different types of thinking.

1/ The Processing/Anayltical Mode= Resembles a computer,processes information: storing existing data and dealing with situations that require solutions where the variables are known. Organizies it into beliefs, concepts and ideas. Is essentially mode of thinking to living our lifes effectively, and once learned, are easily repeated. It is taught in most schools. Most of us have learned to live almost exclusively in this process-orientated mode but this can cause stress, worry, anxiety, depression, a sense of hurry etc.etc. This intellectual form of thinking is taught to us from birth and is highly praised in Western culture. So prized that we neglect the other mode of thinking.

2/ The Free-Flowing Mode =The other way of thinking we have available to us operates like a river. It is always flowing, bringing us new information and thoughts ‘in the moment’ -some from memory, some from a creative source.(doesn’t specify here) The primary purpose of this mode is to enjoy life and operate at peak performance and efficiency levels. Can be termed as creative thinking, reflective mode, creative intelligence, original thought. The ability to think new thoughts that we have never considered. People have conventionally referred to this kind of thinking as intuition, creativity, inspiration, wisdom, insight, realization, out-of-the-blue thoughts, divine inspiration or evolutionary thought. This mode may use memory, but when it does, it does so in a new and creative way that is relevant to the moment.

The truth is that we can do almost anything in the flow mode, depending on our confidence and trust in it. Thinking takes no effort, in fact effort will block our flow thinking and take us right back to the processing mode. Free flowing thinking is completely natural. This is why children spend most of their time in origional thinking-it’s unlearned.

There are times when we are doing nothing or nothing at all, yet paradoxically we get our best thooughts and ideas at precisely these times. The reason :free flow thinking. It ‘s a different type of intelligence. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 4:12 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: Christianity can ONLY be understood within the context of the ancient 2nd Temple Judaism out of which it sprang.

IFF: Christianity sprang, or should have sprung, from the teachings of Jesus, which are in no way constrained by orthodox Judaic teaching. By your logic, we should not accept the divinity of Christ, the atonement for sin by the healing of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection and ascension of Christ, the salvation of the faithful, etc., because they are not a part of ancient 2nd Temple Judaism.

Lee: …Such scholars of necessity cannot allow themselves to be blinded by anything so subjective as experience…

IFF: Which is why they limit God by the limitations of their own intellects. The Living Spirit is known in one’s own direct experience, or not at all. Jesus communicated the way of true worship, or ecstatic bodily communion with the Living God. God is identical to Spirit, or the Living Energy that pervades the world, and the human nervous system, and that every one of us can contact via the bodily process of breathing and feeling.

Lee: Truth is an objective reality that exists outside and independent of, me the observer.

IFF: This is the materialistic view — that only objective reality is real. What is disallowed by materialism is any participatory exploration of reality, because that would result in a loss of objectivity. But that participatory exploration through the instrument of one’s own feeling-awareness turns out to be the primary tool for exploring the spiritual dimension of reality. Materialism inherently disallows the very means required to validate the Greater Reality, and leaves its adherents with no way to validate the existence of this Greater Reality, except to believe what others say about it.

Lee: Now, I’m not saying experience is bad, only that it can’t be the sole or primary basis of our knowledge of the Divine, because experience can be misleading.

IFF: Experience is the only way that we can confirm our knowledge of the Divine. Short of ecstatic union with the Living God, or Spirit (which is the true meaning of being born again via the Spirit), we are left with empty speculation or blind belief based on secondhand knowledge. This type of secondhand knowledge, without internal spiritual experience, is what is misleading and has led to innumerable errors and all of the nonsense that is said and done in the name of religion.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 4:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 23, 2009 5:02 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee: Christianity can ONLY be understood within the context of the ancient 2nd Temple Judaism out of which it sprang.IFF: Christianity sprang, or should have sprung, from the teachings of Jesus, which are in no way constrained by orthodox Judaic teaching. By your logic, we should not accept the divinity of Christ, the atonement for sin by the healing of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection and ascension of Christ, the salvation of the faithful, etc., because they are not a part of ancient 2nd Temple Judaism.

LEE: I agree totally with this. Certainly Christianity is a re-imaging if you will, of Judaism, thus teaches things Judaism doesn’t, however it is simply undeniable that Christianity, claiming to be the fulfillment of Judaism, sprang from it. What you have to do is explain those differences.

IFF: Lee: …Such scholars of necessity cannot allow themselves to be blinded by anything so subjective as experience…IFF: Which is why they limit God by the limitations of their own intellects. The Living Spirit is known in one’s own direct experience, or not at all. Jesus communicated the way of true worship, or ecstatic bodily communion with the Living God. God is identical to Spirit, or the Living Energy that pervades the world, and the human nervous system, and that every one of us can contact via the bodily process of breathing and feeling.

LEE: Christianity isn’t based upon subjectivity. Yes, there’s necessarily a subjective element to it, but Christianity stands or falls upon the fact that Jesus Christ was either literally bodily resurrected from the dead, or he wasn’t.For studying how Christian doctrine grew and evolved over the centuries scholarship is simply invaluable. For example scholarship has ac lot to say about the Nag Hammadi texts. For example, the consensus view of scholars is that these texts are all to late (mid-2nd century at the oldest) to have influenced the writing of the canonical gospels, instead themselves being heavily dependent upon the first. Many people however, being fascinated with the strange teachings of the Nag Hammadi texts and wishing they were as old as the New Testament texts, simply bury their heads in the sand and pretend as if the Gnostic gospels are as authoritative as the canonical NT texts. That way, they get to pick and choose what kind of Jesus (if any) they believe in, and can tailor-make a faith that suits their own likes and desires. Thus the Jesus who said that people should pick up their own crosses and follow him, to death if necessary, in order to find life, the Jesus who exclusivistically stated that salvation could only come through him, and who demonstrated this by dying and being bodily resurrected, goes right out the window. The New Testament Jesus goes right out the window in favor of an otherwordly, realtivistic, pluralistic, Im okay, you’re okay, we’re all okay, Greek or Eastern philosoper-type Jesus, who goes around spouting pithy sayings, makes no ethical or moral demands of his followers other than that they find out who they ‘really’ are, then be true to that, respect the envirnoment, and ultimately looks much more like the Buddha, or Obi Wan Kenobi, than the very Jewish Messiah come to set the captives free from sin and death. Sin in this view, is anything that keeps me from realising my true potential. This is a Christianity with no cross, no sacrificing self, no dying to sin, rising to walk in newess of life. Its basically a me-centered gospel that makes no real ethical/moral demands on me at all.

IFF: Lee: Truth is an objective reality that exists outside and independent of, me the observer.

IFF: This is the materialistic view — that only objective reality is real. What is disallowed by materialism is any participatory exploration of reality, because that would result in a loss of objectivity. But that participatory exploration through the instrument of one’s own feeling-awareness turns out to be the primary tool for exploring the spiritual dimension of reality. Materialism inherently disallows the very means required to validate the Greater Reality, and leaves its adherents with no way to validate the existence of this Greater Reality, except to believe what others say about it.

LEE: This the reality view. Christianity teaches that God created reality and expects us to live in it. But it also teaches that, like the people trapped in the Matrix, our present reality has been corrupted, thus the world we find ourselves in isn’t the real world YHWH intended for us to live in, but a cheap imitation, one corrupted by sin, death, war, disease, famine, sexual disorders, lying, greed, corruption, destruction of the environment, intolerance, etc. But through Jesus’ death and resurrection, YHWH intends to fix the broken world we live in, and to restore it to the way he intended it to be, WITHOUT all of the sin, death, diseases, war, famine, intolerance, etc., etc. We haven’t seen the final result yet, but are still looking forawrd with great expectation.IFF: Lee: Now, I’m not saying experience is bad, only that it can’t be the sole or primary basis of our knowledge of the Divine, because experience can be misleading.

IFF: Experience is the only way that we can confirm our knowledge of the Divine. Short of ecstatic union with the Living God, or Spirit (which is the true meaning of being born again via the Spirit), we are left with empty speculation or blind belief based on secondhand knowledge. This type of secondhand knowledge, without internal spiritual experience, is what is misleading and has led to innumerable errors and all of the nonsense that is said and done in the name of religion.

LEE: According to Christianity, we confirm our knowledge of the Divine both by direct experience, but also through the scriptures the Divine caused to be written-commonly called the Old and New Testaments, or the Bible. So, no. It isn’t either/or, either all direct experience or all rational. Its a balance of the two. God speaks to us directly through his Holy Spirit indwelling us, but also through his writen scriptures. The two will not contradict each other. If I ever have a subjective experience that directly contradicts what is written in a scripture text, then my experience is wrong. Nothing so subjective can serve as the sole basis of comprehending Truth. Truth MUST exist outside and independent of me. It never changes, though my sometimes flawed perception of it often does.Before God can have a personal relationship with me, before he can put his Spirit inside me in order to make that possible, I first have to accept Jesus as Lord and God, as Messiah, as Savior. I have to accept certain non-negotiable Truths: a) that I’m a sinner and that both I and the world are broken b) that Jesus died to fix both me and the world.

I guess I’m doing a poor job of explaining this. I’d recommend you read CS Lewis or NT Wright. Either author does a much better job of explaining authentic Christianity and its insistence on using reason, than I am.

Pax.Lee.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 10:31 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: Christianity isn’t based upon subjectivity. Yes, there’s necessarily a subjective element to it, but Christianity stands or falls upon the fact that Jesus Christ was either literally bodily resurrected from the dead, or he wasn’t.

IFF: The message of Jesus is the universal teaching of ego-transcending love of the Divine, to be practiced directly and in self-transcending love and tolerance of all beings. The religionists who developed the system of beliefs that are now called Christianity transformed Jesus’ universal teaching of ego-transcendence into the dogmatic religion of ego-salvation through the ritual sacrifice of Jesus. Christianity was transformed from the culture and spiritual practice of self-sacrifice to the cult of vicarious salvation. It became a religion of worldly self-improvement, righteous cultism, and eternal self-glorification. But the way of Jesus is the way of all great spiritual masters: the way of the sacrifice and transcendence of egoic self in the Divine. Today, the essence of mainstream Christianity is that we may be saved through faith, or belief in a cultic personal association with Jesus. This is a false teaching. Jesus’ true teaching is summarized in the commandment Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. How that all-absorbing, God-Realizing love was to be attained was communicated in the inner circle, through esoteric or secret, higher, and mystical teaching. However, the God-Realizing process began with one’s life in the world, among one’s neighbors, in a disciplined life of loving and compassionate service. Those individuals who were prepared were given the mystical secrets of the Kingdom of God, the secrets of how to become the Sons and Daughters of God, in other words, how to be pervaded by the Divine Life-Current and lifted up and transformed.It is time that we transcend the ancient religions and the ancient cultural taboos. We must embrace life and surrender into bodily communion with the Living Reality. We must transcend mortal fear and all of its false religious and social dogmas. We must allow life to regenerate us. We must transcend ourselves through ecstatic, mind-transcending love of life, or direct communion with the Living God. Only by doing this can we move beyond our own suffering and realize true happiness in life.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 23, 2009 10:32 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
[Deleted by the author on June 24, 2009 1:46 AM PDT]
Posted on
June 24, 2009 2:03 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 2:10 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 2:49 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 2:50 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Its basically a me-centered gospel that makes no real ethical/moral demands on me at all.

It does, but I guess the spirit blinded you to that part……>

Lee: Truth is an objective reality that exists outside and independent of, me the observer.

It doesn’t, not in spirituality, not in science………



Posted on
June 24, 2009 7:12 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Lee, the truth is within you though, guess that’s what we’re trying to point out. Especially if we are all part of the one. Why wouldn’t we be all included?

The physical world is what we make it to be. Therefore we can make heaven of hell, or hell out of heaven – on Earth through our own thinking, aye sorry back to that again! Sorry can’t locate the word for word quote! A rough time is not wrong…..we are learning

A good time is not right…..we are learning

Good and bad are both correct….they are opposites. (NFSH)+ what influence is working through us below? Both are necessary in human form, and hopefully we can see this in ourself and others. Part of all of our spiritual development….maybe….Contrasts in thoughts and words – (l’ve changed from Good + Bad by the way.)

POSITIVE NEGATIVE

constructive destructive THE POWER THAT

elevates discourages

purifies saddens

encourages enslaves

sustains drains PRODUCES EVERY ACT OF

mercy brutality

courage cowardice

charity meaness INSPIRES

faith suspicion

integrity dishonesty

love hate

truth falsehood

righteousness revenge RADIATES

light darkness

love hate

knowledge ignorance

charity selfishness

peace uncertainty

cheeerfulness despair (NFSH)

Though is the creative artist’s brush of the mind. Thought is the seed from which the choicest bloom or the foulest weed may grow (National Federation of Spiritual Healers ,1991)

Gets even more complicated when we become too focused on the material world! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 7:37 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 7:40 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I’d go for that….



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:16 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:21 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:22 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 8:26 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Laura, if that’s what you believe, that’s your right. My point is that what you are advocating is not Christianity, nor was it ever taught by Jesus. The beliefs you hold do not trace back to Jesus. They trace back to modern spiritual gurus who put such teachings in Jesus’ mouth. Jesus has been made the spokesperson for all kinds of things he never said and wouldn’t have said. So hold your beliefs if you like, but don’t say they come from Jesus.

The topic of this thread was on the Bible and reincarnation. The Bible never taught reincarnation. Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:24 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Paul -Maybe should be Trying to experience it now and the skys the limit! LS

We could all however be represented as various shades of grey perhaps…. at the moment?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:32 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Let those who have ears hear and eyes see:

All 7 and well watch them fall

They stand in the way of love

And we will smoke them all

With an intellect and a savoir-faire

No one in the whole universe

Will ever compare

I am yours now and u are mine

And together well love

through

All space and time, so dont cry

One day all 7 will die

All 7 and well watch them fall

They stand in the way of love

And we will smoke them all

With an intellect and a savoir-faire

No one in the whole universe

Will ever compare

I am yours now and u are mine

And together well love through

All space and time, so dont cry

One day all 7 will die

And I saw an angel come down unto me

In her hand she holds the very key

Words of compassion, words of peace

And in the distance an armys marching feet (1,2,3,4 – 1,2,3,4)

But behold, we will watch them fall

And we lay down on the sand of the sea

And before us animosity will stand and decree

That we speak not of love only blasphemy

And in the distance, 6 others will curse me

But thats alright, (thats alright)

4 I will watch them fall

(1,2,3,4,5,6,7)

All 7 and well watch them fall

They stand in the way of love

And we will smoke them all

With an intellect and a savoir-faire

No one in the whole universe

Will ever compare

I am yours now and u are mine

And together well love through

All space and time, so dont cry

One day all 7 will die

[(just how old)]

And we will see a plague and a river of blood

And every evil soul will surely die in spite of

Their 7 tears, but do not fear

4 in the distance, 12 souls from now

U and me will still be here – we will still be here

There will be a new city with streets of gold

The young so educated they never grow old

And a, there will be no death 4 with every breath

The voice of many colors sings a song

Thats so bold

Sing it while we watch them fall

All 7 and well watch them fall

They stand in the way of love

And we will smoke them all

With an intellect and a savoir-faire

No one in the whole universe

Will ever compare

I am yours now and u are mine

And together well love through

All space and time, so dont cry

One day all 7 will die

[(just how old)]

[(just how old)]

[(just how old)]



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 8:47 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Yes Lee you are right of course about previous comments being my own personal beliefs. We just hold different veiwpoints…and what makes sense to me doesn’t to you, and vice-versa. As will be the case with everyone in this discussion to various degrees. BUT l do believe Jesus is a very important spiritual being/human/entity and that he had a very specific goal to achieve for us and towards humanity’s continual developing spirituality… but he is only part of the bigger spirituality picture… and all things take time down on Earth. Depends how far we want to enquire l guess. If we are all part of God then surely he can work through each of us on a personal level? Why would be rely on one book or one person? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:55 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
What do you think Jesus was trying to teach us then…. if it wasn’t unconditional love for humanity as a whole? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 8:58 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan , yes l do appreciate all your poetry! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 10:02 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
And another:Telegram force and ready I knew this was a big mistake There’s a fine line drawing My senses together And I think it’s about to break If I listen close I can hear them singers Voices in your body coming through on the radio The Union of the Snake is on the climb Moving up it’s gonna race it’s gonna break Through the borderline Nightshades on a warning Give me strength at least give me a light Give me anything even sympathy There’s a chance you could be right The Union of the Snake is on the climb It’s gonna race it’s gonna break Gonna move up to the borderline



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 10:23 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 10:28 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: What do you think Jesus was trying to teach us then…. if it wasn’t unconditional love for humanity as a whole? LS

LEE: Jesus definitely taught love, but there’s more to his message than that. Jesus was trying to teach us that creation, including humanity, was under the curse of sin and death, because of the fall, both physical death and spiritual separation from God leading to spiritual death. Jesus came to teach us how much the Covenant god of Israel, YHWH loved the world and human beings, how that Covenant God demonstrated that love for us by incarnating himself as one of us, and sacrificing himself, shedding his blood, to remove the curse of sin and death. ONLY Jesus’ death could atone for sin. The blood of bulls and goats couldn’t. Nor could being reincarnated enough times to balance one’s karma. Reincarnation, even if true, couldn’t remove our sinful nature. Only God, offering himself as a sacrifice through the person of Jesus, could do that. So Jesus not only told us about God’s love, he demonstrated it by his death and resurrection. Jesus’ mission was to teach mankind how to be reconciled with God through believing in his death, burial and resurrection, then how to live as saved people. Thus Jesus wasn’t simply one small part of a much larger whole, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end, of Christianity. Everything in Christianity revolves around Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. According to Christian theology Jesus was/is YHWH’s Logos, or Word, his divine Reason, made human, thus was present at creation, indeed, Yeshua/Jesus, as God, created the universe, and it was created for him.Christianity (like Judaism), teaches that God is our creator. God is thus separate and apart from us. We are thus not part of God in the sense I think you mean. God exists outside and apart from the space-time continuum as we know it. He created it. It reflects his glory, especially humans do, however none of creation is part of God. In ancient paganism, the gods were created whereas the universe was/is eternal. In Judaism and Christianity just the reverse is true-the universe was created by the eternal God. You guys are mixing Eastern religious concepts with Judaism and Christianity, concepts no Jews or Christians would recognize.

As I keep saying, Jesus claimed to be the very Jewish Messiah, who operated in the very Jewish terms of the one, eternal, uncreated, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator-God YHWH, saving the created world from the effects of the fall-sin and death, through the incarnation, and sacrifice, and bodily resurrection, of Yeshua, the Christ, or Messiah. Yeshua/Jesus did not shed his humanity at his ascension to heaven, but reigns at YHWH’s right hand in his human form. One day Yesha/Jesus will return to earth to finish the work he began with his death and resurrection.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 10:43 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 10:47 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Your view doesn’t reflect Judiasm…..And by your definition God was an utter failure and incompetent…..

>Nor could being reincarnated enough times to balance one’s karma.

That part is correct, but it’s not necessary to balance, only necessary to face your karmic self.

>Reincarnation, even if true, couldn’t remove our sinful nature.

Yes it can and in fact that is the purpose.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 11:46 AM PDT

glenn says:
Bryan,

1. In what ways does Lee’s view not reflect Judaism?

2. In what sense does Lee define God as a failure and incompetent?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 11:51 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Bryan, how was/is Jesus a failure? And if sin is the reason that we die to begin with, I fail to see how dying and being reborn two dozen times could fix that. Sin and death came through the disobedience of Adam, and salvation and life come through the obedience of the one man, Jesus. Christianity teaches that no amount of human moral effort, no matter how noble (over no matter how many lifetimes), can remove sin. Only God through the person and sacrifice of Jesus could do that. If human effort, even over two dozen lifetimes, could save us, or remove our sin, then Jesus died for nothing.

My view reflects what the Bible and authentic Christianity have always taught. Christianity claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Judaism. Jesus was/is the long-expected Jewish Messiah. Thus, Christianity must be understood in light of Judaism, and esp. the Old Testament.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 12:04 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>1. In what ways does Lee’s view not reflect Judaism?

Jews don’t view God as seperate from His/Her creation, but as part of it (at least the ones I’ve talked too).

>2. In what sense does Lee define God as a failure and incompetent?

God created a humanity in His image that are totally unable to live up to His standards. And than blames us for it on top of that.

(which is contrary to the jewish view also).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 12:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 12:15 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Bryan, how was/is Jesus a failure? And if sin is the reason that we die to begin with, I fail to see how dying and being reborn two dozen times could

>fix that. Sin and death came through the disobedience of Adam, and salvation and life come through the obedience of the one man, Jesus. Christianity

>teaches that no amount of human moral effort, no matter how noble (over no matter how many lifetimes), can remove sin. Only God through the

>person and sacrifice of Jesus could do that. If human effort, even over two dozen lifetimes, could save us, or remove our sin, then Jesus died for

>nothing.

More like thousands of times depending on what you chose to learn and how hard you push yourself.

Sin and death came from us destroying the tree which was our connection to each other and to God.

Now we are rebuilding it internally to us.

As for Jesus dying on the cross…no comment, I’ll be nice.

>My view reflects what the Bible and authentic Christianity have always taught. Christianity claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Judaism. Jesus was/is the

>long-expected Jewish Messiah. Thus, Christianity must be understood in light of Judaism, and esp. the Old Testament.

Authentic christianity as such got lost at the Council of Nicea(sp?), what you have is a shell. And Jesus does not meet the criteria of the Messiah they were waiting for.

I notice you avoided my response to the judaic requirements of there Messiah.

Not to mention that Jesus=God is blasphemy of a sort to them, in the way Christians mean it.

P.S. When we got sent here, the Holy Spirit could not come with us. You have to learn to reconnect with it.

P.P.S. Jesus didn’t fail, humanity did, again.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 12:25 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: Sin and death came through the disobedience of Adam, and salvation and life come through the obedience of the one man, Jesus.

IFF: Wrong on both counts. Everything that is born dies. Salvation doesn’t change that. Sin arises from the false belief in separation from God or the Source of Life. Life is your eternal reality and never dies. Salvation is attained when you discover your true identity as infinite consciousness, the Self, one with God and with all beings. Then it doesn’t matter what happens to the body/mind, because that is not what you are. You are eternal spirit, consciousness itself, untouched by any form or condition, including birth and death.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 12:49 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF, according to Judaism and Christianity, nothing died until sin entered the picture.

Were it not for the fall, death would not have entered the picture. Remember, I’m talking about authentic Christianity, not your modern Eastern reinterpretation of it. Christianity has always taught that God will redeem body/mind/spirit. In Hebrew and subsequent Christian theology God created us as composite beings of body/mind/spirit. If you remove any one of the three you have a broken human being.

Pax.Lee.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 12:52 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Skip the body part (at least a physical body), that didn’t happen till we got sent to our houses (i.e. the bodies we inhabit through the lifetimes we live).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 1:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 24, 2009 1:08 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: …according to Judaism and Christianity, nothing died until sin entered the picture…

IFF: Your beliefs are too silly to take seriously. Everything that is born dies. Period.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 3:07 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Lee,

But all l am saying is that he hasn’t gone, and that his death and resurrection can mean much, much more than many people presently think. He is still present and continues to work alongside us. Just a different perspectous that’s all.The numerous spiritual pathways that we can take could be viewed as ultimately leading us to the same goal. This depends largely on how prepared we are to work towards it…unconditional love, spiritual consciouness whatever you choose to call it. However these type of beliefs have been demonised by most. But there is a right time and place for everything to play out these roles. Otherwise Jesus/Christ could have written the book himself, could he not, so that no misunderstandings or distortions could be made by us?

If we can learn to recognise the negative influences, from whatever forces/ or name you percieve them to be. This is the ultimate trick ..and that could make us believe these negative forces are just us … when they are not really. These forces cause mayhem within our world and within ouselves do they not – because they can work through us? But they are also part of what make us human being’s. This causes even more confusion for everyone.

If one can accept that we are spiritual beings striving towards unconditional love and understanding this could change our world. God could be viewed the positive counter balance… waiting to be recognised within us… but also has to be the ultimate organiser for all of us for the above senarios to work as a whole. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 3:13 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Lee Because it is an eternal, continual work in progress perhaps? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 3:42 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Lee, sorry it’s me again.

The body/mind/spirit are all required on Earth of course, and are also the main component of new age thinking, complementary therapies and current new thinking within the Western medical system. Plus Eastern beliefs of the importance of the body/mind/spirit have been around thousands of years before Christianity entered the equasion. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 5:46 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 24, 2009 5:48 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
Posted on
June 25, 2009 10:46 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Microbes die; insects die; animals die; …

Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ …

Languages ‘die'; cultures ‘die'; nations ‘die'; civilizations ‘die’ …

Identities ‘die'; egos ‘die'; pride ‘dies'; prejudice ‘dies’…

Dogmas ‘die’ …



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 12:49 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 12:50 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 12:52 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 12:53 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 1:00 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
In some respects yes



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 1:05 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
That might be correct.

If not interpretation, it is correct in detail.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 1:49 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
PAS: Correct, the eternal life in John was a contract for a set time to get in together thru multiple reincarnations IFF: John had been Jesus’ guru in their previous incarnations as Elijah (John) and Elisah (Jesus). That is why Jesus insisted on being baptized by John the Baptist.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 1:53 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
maybe, definitely vice versa……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 1:57 PM PDT

Kevin Bold says:
Dogmas are truths. Truths never die.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 2:05 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
truths as you suppose, die all the time……



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 2:12 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 2:42 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
And perhaps an umbrella term for all the other saviours from around the world. i.e same message, from different places? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 25, 2009 3:35 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee: …according to Judaism and Christianity, nothing died until sin entered the picture…IFF: Your beliefs are too silly to take seriously. Everything that is born dies. Period.

LEE: Well, tens of billions of people, both Jews and Christians, have held my view literally for centuries. That mankind was created immortal isn’t any sillier than the idea that people die then are reincarnated over and over again. Many orthodox Jews and Christians might say reincarnation is a silly idea. When man was originally created, he was created immortal. According to orthodox Judaism and Christianity because of the sin of Adam humans die. You can call this silly if you like, but Jesus and all the early Christians believed it, as have Christians through the centuries and today.

As Kevin said, truth is truth. Either Christianity is true or one of the Eastern religions (no two of which are exactly alike-for example classical Hindusim posits that you can be reincarnated as a lower caste, or even lower life-form), that teach reincarnation are. Jesus did not believe in reincarnation, nor did the Bible ever teach it.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:39 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 25, 2009 4:14 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
No, most were incarnations of him, or those who work with him.

And Kevins ‘truths’ have always proven to be false on one level.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:39 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
When man was originally created, he was created immortal.

This is true, but without flesh and emanated from the created. See Adam Kadmon, Universal Man, primeval man, Spirit man, cosmic man, the Second Adam to this day he has yet to die. There is also a similar concept in Alevi and Sufic philosophy called Insan-i Kamil comparable to the Anthropos of Gnosticism and Manichaeism. However, in Lurianic Kabbalah, Adam Kadmon acquired much more exalted status, equivalent to Purusha in the Upanishads, denoting the Manifest Absolute itself.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:41 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Jesus believed in reincarnation.

You might really want to talk to him one of these days.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:44 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Once, we did run

How we chased a million stars

and touched as only one can

Once, we did play

How the past delivered you

Amidst our youth we’d dream away, away

As if I knew the words I’m sure you’ll hear

Of how we met as you recall so clear

Once, we did love

Long ago how did I forget Holding you so closely

Look, how I move

Chance would have me glance at you

To know how you move me

Me, all barriers fall around us as we hear

Of memories known and matters long ago, so clear

[interlude]

Once, we did run

How we chased a million stars And touched as only one can




In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:44 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 25, 2009 3:53 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Lee: Not all Christians believe that death came after Adam and Eve’s sin. Bible literalists believe this. Non-literalists believe (and I agree with them) that there was death even before Adam and Eve. Some of us believe that there was life on earth before Adam and Eve, like dinosaurs and other animal life, and plant life. We believe that Adam and Eve came later on into the picture when God decided to place on earth a creation made in His own image. So, it’s not fair to claim that all Christians believe this. There are also some non-Orthodox Jews that believe the same way as non-literalists Christians. My mother-in-law is Jewish, and she believes there were dinosaurs, etc., before Adam and Eve. We believe that dinosaurs died before Adam and Eve sinned. Does that mean we don’t believe in Truth because we believe differently about this matter? I don’t think so.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 3:48 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 25, 2009 3:50 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Pure as we begin

Pure as we come in

Pure as we begin

Ruled by will alone

Pure as we begin

Here we have a stone

Gather, place, erase so

Shelter turned to home

Pure as we begin

Here we have a stone

Throw to stay the stranger

Swore to crush his bones

Move by will alone

Spark becomes a flame

Flame becomes a fire

Light the way or warm this

Hope we occupy

Spark becomes a flame

Flame becomes a fire

Forge a blade to slay the stranger

Take whatever we desire

Move by will alone

Pure as we begin

Pure as we begin

Move by will alone

Leave as we come in

Pure as light, return to one

Move by will alone



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 4:20 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Calling All Angels

Santa Maria, Santa Teresa, Santa Anna, Santa Susannah Santa Cecilia, Santa Copelia, Santa Domenica, Mary Angelica Frater Achad, Frater Pietro, Julianus, Petronilla Santa, Santos, Miroslaw, Vladimir and all the rest a man is placed upon the steps, a baby cries and high above the church bells start to ring and as the heaviness the body oh the heaviness settles in somewhere you can hear a mother sing then it’s one foot then the other as you step out onto the road how much weight? how much weight? then it’s how long? and how far? and how many times before it’s too late? calling all angels calling all angels walk me through this one don’t leave me alone calling all angels calling all angels we’re cryin’ and we’re hurtin’ and we’re not sure why… and every day you gaze upon the sunset with such love and intensity it’s almost…it’s almost as if if you could only crack the code then you’d finally understand what this all means but if you could…do you think you would trade in all the pain and suffering? ah, but then you’d miss the beauty of the light upon this earth and the sweetness of the leaving calling all angels calling all angels walk me through this one don’t leave me alone callin’ all angels callin’ all angels we’re tryin’ we’re hopin’ we’re hurtin’ we’re lovin’ we’re cryin’ we’re callin’ ’cause we’re not sure how this goes



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 4:53 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
IFF: Lee: …according to Judaism and Christianity, nothing died until sin entered the picture…IFF: Your beliefs are too silly to take seriously. Everything that is born dies. Period.LEE: Well, tens of billions of people, both Jews and Christians, have held my view literally for centuries.

IFF: And everyone of them has died, or will die. What do you mean when you say nothing died until sin entered the picture? I assumed you mean that their body did not die. If you mean something else, than that’s a different matter. Are you saying that everyone who physically died (before sin) were resurrected in heaven, but after sin, everyone just died? You need to be a little clearer. When you say that before sin that no one died, the obvious interpretation is that their bodies were immortal. That is just silly.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 5:27 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 5:28 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
WHAT!?!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 5:28 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 5:30 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:55 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 6:34 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually Paul is right. In the creation of Adam and Eve, it’s metaphorical.

Adam and Eve was all of us.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 6:36 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Ahh, so that’s what your refering too.

Except I could point out one technical problem (but that would destroy the lie that’s been made).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 6:37 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
WHAT!?! NO WAY! That’s not possible, it’s in a book…helloooo!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 25, 2009 6:40 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I saw the movie……



Posted on
June 25, 2009 11:44 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Luke 11:52 You take away the key of knowledge because you do not enter within yourself.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:23 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
I’ve heard this as well, and about the world being created in 7 days, doesn’t actually mean this, but took millions of years per day. But then that fits more in with science and l am from western culture. Think this concept would be unbelievable to some depending on culture and current belief system. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:35 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Think this is relevant but not from Bible but from a guy called Adams (believe it or not!) Talking about health in Western medicine and the reductionist approach to health + care. (1985)

There is little sense in attempting to change external conditions,you must first change inner beliefs,then outer conditionswill change accordingly. (p98)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:38 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 1:41 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
From what I was told when I was younger is that the greek passage just indicates a passage of time, but not one clearly defined, per se.

Insofar as what I was shown and told, we weren’t created in the flesh, and the entire universe was our playground.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 1:42 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Mind over Matter…..



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 2:31 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan ,

Yes l’ve heard/read about that too re the entire universe was our playground.

Re my comment millions of years per day- that was just my science mind perception talking! Should have said – could have been any amount of time producing the different day effect.

Just wondered have you listened to James Blunt CD -All The Lost Souls? Know your liking for poetry and l think some of his songs are very poetic and some of his lines are just amazing. The I’ll Take Everything song l find personally uplifting and is about reincarnation. Other good songs include- Same Mistake Again, Carry you Home, Give Me Some Love, l Really Want You + Shine On. These ones are mainly to do with our losses and mistakes made in life and our confusions and lack of understanding. Think you will like them? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 2:46 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
As for the entire universe, the concept I know of as universe is much more than we know or can imagine, or even see with our physical eyes.

As for time period agreed.

On James Blunt, only have two of his songs so far, ‘You’re Beautiful’ and ‘High’.On the poetry, it’s one of the main ways the Spirit talks to me, either by expressing what’s going on in my heart, or by answering certain questions.

The synchronicity is funny at times.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:07 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Yes and this SO works re Mind over matter. Could quote hundreds of examples here but l won’t cause it would take forever! LS

Think this is important to bear in mind with everyone’s inputs as well as my own.

Another Richard Carlson quote from, You Can Be Happy No Matter What- five principles for keeping Life in perspective.(2007)

The Principle of Thought

The Principle of Moods

The Principle of Separate Realities

The Principle of Feelings

The Principle of the Present Moment The principle of separate realities suggests that no two people see life in precisely the same manner. We all look at life through our own unique filter, our own thought system. And while many of us know this at an intelectual level, the principle of separate realities reminds us this is not merely an intellectual, but a psychological fact. Once we accept this truth, we become free to genuinely enjoy and learn from each other’s differences, including those we may not understand.

Since each of us has our own personal frame of reference, our individual perceptions of life will vary. It will always seem to us that we ourselves are seeing a situation with a realistic outlook, but the principle of separate realities does not credit or discredit any one point of view, or argue right and wrong. It points out simply that reality is an apparition, how something appears from a particular frame of reference. Separate realities mean that each of us is like a foreign country!

Person A is certain the world is a safe place. Person B believes the world is dangerous. Who is right? Both are-within their own personal frame of reference. Both can point to endless, valid examples of why their veiwpoint is correct and both would do so with absolute certainty.

When we see how our individual thought systems work to create our perspectives on the world, we are free to expand beyond those limitations. We feel less threatened when someone disagrees or is dissappointed with us, because we understand the inevitability of this dynamic. We see the innocence in our own negative thinking and beliefs, as well as the innocence in the negativity of others. We recognise beliefs as the result of past conditioning. Our understanding of separate realities allows us to take things less personally, because we understand the nature of biases, beliefs, and philosophies about life.

When it is given that we all view life differently, we can expand ourselves to see this as rational and beautiful, and open the door to more fruitful, mutually nurturing relationships. We naturally become less defensive and less critical, because we are less attached to preaching our personal life view and more concerned with bringing forth universal positive feeling. (p99-101)



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:09 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 3:13 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Bryan – Yes me too, re poetry and songs. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:22 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
A Journey once taken:

Stolen Child

Where dips the rocky highland of sleuth wood in the lake

There lies a leafy island where flapping herons wake

The drowsy water rats there we’ve hid our fairy vats

Full of berries and of reddest stolen cherries

Chorus:

Come away, oh human child

To the waters and the wild

With a faery hand in hand

For the world’s more full of weeping

Than you can understand

Where the wave of moonlight glosses the dim grey sands with light

By far off furthest rosses we foot it all the night

Weaving olden dances, mingling hands and mingling glances

‘Til the moon has taken flight to and fro we leap

And chase the frothy bubbles whilst the world is full of troubles

And is anxious in its sleep

(Chorus)

Where the wandering water gushes from the hills above glen car

In pools among the rushes that scarce could bathe a star

We seek for slumbering trout and whispering in their ears

Give them unquiet dreams leaning softly out

From ferns that drop their tears over the young streams

(Chorus)

Away with us he’s going, the solemned eyed

He’ll hear no more the lowing of the calves on the warm hillside

Or the kettle on the hob sing peace unto his breast

Or see the brown mice bob ’round and ’round the oatmeal chest

For he comes, the human child

To the waters and the wild

With a faery hand in hand

For the world’s more full of weeping

Than you can understand



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 7:59 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 8:03 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ROSITA TANZA: Lee: Not all Christians believe that death came after Adam and Eve’s sin. Bible literalists believe this. Non-literalists believe (and I agree with them) that there was death even before Adam and Eve. Some of us believe that there was life on earth before Adam and Eve, like dinosaurs and other animal life, and plant life. We believe that Adam and Eve came later on into the picture when God decided to place on earth a creation made in His own image. So, it’s not fair to claim that all Christians believe this. There are also some non-Orthodox Jews that believe the same way as non-literalists Christians. My mother-in-law is Jewish, and she believes there were dinosaurs, etc., before Adam and Eve. We believe that dinosaurs died before Adam and Eve sinned. Does that mean we don’t believe in Truth because we believe differently about this matter? I don’t think so.

LEE: Maybe I should have said historic Christianity. Regardless, Paul is clear that the sin of Adam (whether the Genesis story is literal or symbolic) was responsible for death affecting humans:

Romans 5:14;17: Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. . . .For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Paul also addresses the idea of the creation being held in bondage because of the fall:Romans 8:18-23:I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.Thus, according to Paul, humans die because of Adam’s sin. Think about it-why would God create a sentient life-form, created in his image, conscious, self-aware, able to make moral choices, but that would age, get sick, and finally die? Why create man but create him mortal? God didn’t. Paul teaches that the fall of Adam brought about sin and death and the creation being held in bondage by God, but that God intends to liberate ALL of creation.

How this fits in with the dinosaurs I don’t know (I don’t question their existence). Whether the Adam and Eve story should be seen as literal or symbolic, I’m not sure. Paul seems to view it as literal. Regardless, I DO know that authentic Christianity teaches the redemption of the WHOLE world, not just people, and ALL of people, not just their souls.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 8:07 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 8:27 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: esus believed in reincarnation.You might really want to talk to him one of these days.

LEE: I talk to Jesus all the time, and, funny thing, reincarnation has never come up.

Pax.Lee.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 8:27 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 8:33 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: And everyone of them has died, or will die. What do you mean when you say nothing died until sin entered the picture? I assumed you mean that their body did not die. If you mean something else, than that’s a different matter. Are you saying that everyone who physically died (before sin) were resurrected in heaven, but after sin, everyone just died? You need to be a little clearer. When you say that before sin that no one died, the obvious interpretation is that their bodies were immortal. That is just silly.

LEE: I’m telling you what authentic, historic, orthodox Christianity teaches. Christianity (and orthodox Judaism) teaches that God created a perfect physical universe with plant and animal life, topped off by composite creatures of body/mind/spirit that we call humans, which were created in his image, meaning as conscious, self-aware, and able to make conscious moral choices for good or ill. The first humans were created immortal according to the Bible, as I quoted to Rosita above. Death, according to the apostle Paul, entered human experience through the sin of Adam. Through choosing to go our own way and disobey our creator, sin and physical death entered the picture. After the fall, people began to age, get sick, grow old, and eventually die, whereas humans were created to live forever. Not only humanity was negatively affected though-the whole of creation is even now groaning in bondage, awaiting its redemption by Christ.

Christianity (as did ancient Judaism), teaches that the faithful will die a mortal death, but will one day be bodily resurrected to live on the recreated earth, an earth returned to its pristine, paradisical form-no more pollution, no more natural disasters, no more greenhouse effect/global warming. No more disease epidemics. Mo more war, starvation, hunger, faminine, intolerance, racism, etc. Humans will live in total harmony with nature and each other the way we were intended to.The common view that many Christians unfortunately hold, of disembodied souls going to heaven, is an unconscious holdover from Gnosticism, which disparaged the material world, seeing it as at best a distraction from ture spiritual existence, or at worst, downright evil, a wicked prison the elect needed to flee. Christianity was also negatively influenced by the Enlightenment. But the Bible and original, historic Christianity never taught this pseudo-Gnostic view.

Basically, Christianity teaches the essential goodness of the world and that God will save it, and all human beings who put their faith/trust in him. We will be bodily resurrected never to die again.This may sound silly, but its no more silly than a Hindu believing his uncle, due to bad karma, got reincarnated as a chicken. Its no more silly than a New-Ager believing they’ve been reincarnated in previous lives 500 times.And as I’ve said, Christianity diesn’t depend upon anything as subjective as experience, or emotion, or feelings for its truth-claims. Christianity stands or falls upon Jesus’ crucifixion and bodily resurrection. Either this actually happened in history or it didn’t, and the whole thing’s a lie or a silly myth. But millions of intelligent people, from the ancient philosopher and Christian theologian Justin Martyr to physicist Sir Isaac Newton, to former atheist, Oxford scholar and Christian apologist CS Lewis, to mathemeticisn John Lennox, to geneticist Dr. Francis Collins, to Vampire Chronicles novelist Anne Rice, have believed/believe this. If I’m silly for believing it, so are they. That puts me in pretty good intellectual company.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 9:16 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Maybe once you’re ready, you might discuss it.

Of course if you really did talk to him, than you know he did not die on the cross.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 9:17 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 9:18 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Paul was never an apostle.

Btw, why is your soul crying for release than?



Posted on
June 26, 2009 9:56 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 10:02 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan said:Paul was never an apostle Bryan is a liar, plain and simple. Here is what God tells us in His Word and God does NOT lie as Bryan does so easily.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:And Bryan also rather stupidly said: (keep in mind that his ignorance is WILLFUL and purposeful: to set himself in opposition to the God who bled and died for HIM.)

if you really did talk to him, than you know he did not die on the cross

Gods Word tells us the truth of the matter so that we don’t have to listen to an uneducated, sin sick, depraved, ignorant doofus spouting off about things he knows NOTHING about!

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

And you people get upset with ME because I call Bryan and his ilk on their blasphemous statements of hatred toward God and His Crosswork?

You better figure out whose side you are on before the do-do hits the fan, folks!



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 10:41 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Sorry, not allowed to lie about such matters.



Posted on
June 26, 2009 11:13 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan, you wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you on your cute little patoot!

You need to stop playing around with your eternal destiny, fella.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:20 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Bryan,Sorry, but Paul WAS an apostle of Jesus, and yes, Paul did have a large influence in First Century Christianity. He just didn’t teach many of the doctrines that are being spread in modern-day Christianity. Some of these newer doctrines were created AFTER the death of all the Apostles and most of the First Century Christians. Many people like Augustine, Luther and Calvin created their own doctrines according to what they assumed a particular scripture meant. Some, like Martin Luther, even changed scripture to conform to their beliefs. It’s no news that many Christians do the same in the present.Paul included the Jews (since he and Jesus were both Jews) into the salvation equation. He didn’t separate them, like some Christians are doing now. Paul believed that Jesus’ teachings applied to both Jews AND Christians. Some Christians are currently teaching doctrines that Paul himself never taught. These people are repeating Luther’s doctrines, in which he stated that Jews were blasphemers and liars because they rejected the divinity of Jesus.(^ Brecht, 3:341-43; Mullett, 241; Marty, 172.)

Luther hated Jews, just as this doctrine proves that it is antisemitic. Many of Luther’s antisemitic doctrines contributed to the hatred towards Jews by the Nazis in Germany. (^ Berger, Ronald. Fathoming the Holocaust: A Social Problems Approach (New York: Aldine De Gruyter, 2002), 28; Johnson, Paul. A History of the Jews (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1987), 242; Shirer, William. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960).

We believers need to study a bit more Christian History. We can’t be satisfied with just a Bible correspondence course.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:33 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: The first humans were created immortal according to the Bible…

IFF: So, you are saying they were physically immortal? That is what I am saying is silly. It blatantly contradicts science and everything we know about the world. Everything that is born, dies. How can anyone take you seriously when you say silly things such as this?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:41 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Paul of Tarsus was a conventional Jew, trained in the sectarian rabbinical system of his time. He was not taught by Jesus or the disciples of Jesus, nor does the point of view expressed in his letters represent the true teaching of Jesus. At some point, Paul had a mystical experience which he associated with Jesus, and he then proceeded to develop his own Pauline religion which contradicted the teachings of Jesus, and does not accomplish what it claims — enable the individual to attain salvation by simply witnessing or believing in Jesus’ sacrifice. Therefore, Paul’s teachings should be criticized and ultimately rejected.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 12:54 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I agree with IFeelFree that Paul might have had a mystical experience. But the Bible among other things points to him as a false apostle.



Posted on
June 26, 2009 1:06 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
If you reject Pauls teachings, which the Scriptures tell us were revealed to him personally by the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ, then you reject Christianity from its grass roots.

IFF…I have long known you were not a bible believer, but now you have labeled yourself an UNBELIEVER as well.

Certainly not a christian by any stretch of the imagination. What we BELIEVE is what we will be judged on.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 1:42 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Christine: If you reject Pauls teachings, which the Scriptures tell us were revealed to him personally by the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ, then you reject Christianity from its grass roots…

IFF: When you say that Scripture tells us, who is that scripture quoting, Paul? I don’t doubt that Paul had some kind of mystical experience which he associated with Christ, but that in no way means that the religious views he developed were revealed to him by Christ, or reflect the true teachings of Christ. The point is that Paul, unlike the 12 disciples or inner circle of Jesus was not instructed personally by Jesus, and what Paul taught was not the religion taught by Jesus but only a mythological religion about Jesus.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 2:00 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
IFeelFree,

I have to be honest and fair about Paul. He really didn’t create a religion that contradicted Jesus’ Gospel. All those changes in doctrine and the Pauline religion came centuries afterward when the first two Christian denominations, the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation, decided to change, eliminate and add scriptures in the New Testament. People who are teaching these new doctrines supposedly coming from Paul are actually teaching the doctrines that Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Augustine created out of their own assumptions of what certain scripture meant to them. Now Paul is being blamed for all these false teachings. He must be rolling in his grave! Even those who are Paulinian in belief don’t realize that they’re perpetuating false doctrine attributed to Paul. Remember, many of the scriptures that you are reading in the Bible which have been attributed to Paul were tampered with! Please find non religiously-biased, historical books on Martin Luther, John Calvin, Augustine and many of the contributors to the Protestant Reformation and you will find most of this information.

Christians don’t want to believe that they are reading a book that has been tampered with by Men, so they are letting themselves be deceived by many man-made doctrines.



Posted on
June 26, 2009 2:07 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Lee says

>>Death, [...] entered human experience through the [original] sin [...]

I said

>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}

Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}

Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily resurrected believers when {B} happens? If Lee, Rosita, Christine or anyone says {B} cannot happen, I am out of here…



Posted on
June 26, 2009 2:12 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
IFF said:The point is that Paul, unlike the 12 disciples or inner circle of Jesus was not instructed personally by Jesus, and what Paul taught was not the religion taught by Jesus but only a mythological religion about Jesus.

IFF is seriously mistaken. Paul was given revelation personally by Christ RISEN from the dead on the road to Damascus. By denying that Pauls words are Christs words, she rejects Christ Risen from the dead and the apostle that HE appointed for US, the church which is His body today.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Pauls words ARE the words of the Lord Jesus…RISEN from the dead.

Here is what God has to say about Pauls words:

1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I (Paul) write unto you ARE the commandments of the Lord.

Paul WAS instructed personally by Jesus Christ. He was instructed with regard to the revelation of the MYSTERY which was KEPT SECRET since the world began.

Peter and the boys were instructed by Jesus in His humanity, when He tells us that His words were TO and ABOUT the Nation of Israel BEFORE His death, burial and resurrection.

Paul was given GODS WORDS to govern we who are members of Christs BODY…an entity that didn’t exist BEFORE Paul was saved.

IFF is off base and not biblically sound with her words here.



Posted on
June 26, 2009 2:30 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 2:31 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Paul, nor Jesus, nor any of the Apostles ever claimed that God ended the Old Covenant and started a New Covenant. That was Augustine’s idea centuries after the last Apostle died and after the last of the First Century Christians died. He’s a copy and paste of what John Calvin did:

Quoted: Calvin argues that the knowledge of God is not inherent in humanity nor can it be discovered by observing this world. The only way to obtain it is to study scripture. Calvin writes, For anyone to arrive at God the Creator he needs Scripture as his Guide and Teacher. (^ Parker 1995, p. 21). Me: Calvin didn’t believe that God spoke to us in the present, so he claimed that we could only know God through scripture. This is also what Christine teaches.

Augustine taught that all humanity has inherited the original sin of Adam and Eve. The Apostles nor Jesus taught this. In Calvin’s view, sin began with the Fall of Adam and Eve. What? Did he believe that Satan hadn’t sin then BEFORE Adam and Eve? Calvin agrees with Luther that we are saved by faith alone, when Luther was the one to add the word alone, which Luther even ADMITS to having added to Romans 3:28:(Cut and pasted) – You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: `Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word `alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

Quoted: Martin Luther and John Calvin affirmed that Original Sin completely destroyed liberty (or that the inherited sin caused Man to be totally depraved). (Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005, article Original Sin).

Luther was antisemitic, as are the doctrines that Christine is passing on:

Quoted: Luther wrote about the Jews throughout his career, though only a few of his works dealt with them directly.

[Michael, Robert. Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006, 109; Mullett, 242.] He considered the Jews blasphemers and liars because they rejected the divinity of Jesus, whereas Christians believed Jesus was the Messiah.

[Brecht, 3:341-43; Mullett, 241; Marty, 172.] In 1523, Luther advised kindness toward the Jews in That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew, but only with the aim of converting them to Christianity.

[^ Brecht, 3:334; Marty, 169; Marius, 235.] When his efforts at conversion failed, he grew increasingly bitter toward them.



Posted on
June 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Not a Calvinist here, Rosie.What God SAID was that both the OLD and the NEW Covenant were with the same group of people….the Nation of Israel.

The NEW Covenant will not begin until God again is dealing with the Nation AFTER the times of the gentiles comes in, or is completed….but it WILL happen.

See Jer 31:31 for verification of the recipients of the OLD/NEW Covenant.

Today we are not under a covenant, but under GRACE thru faith in the finished work of Christ.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 2:46 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 2:48 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
You are teaching AUGUSTINE, dear Christine. He believed that God had ended the Old Covenant and started a New Covenant. Jesus said that he came to FULFILL the law, not to end it. This doesn’t mean that we live by the Law of Moses, of course, but it doesn’t mean that God ended the Covenant either. Why are you asking me to see Jer 31:31? Are you actually going back on your words that the Old Testament doesn’t apply to us? If we are under Grace, why do you keep bringing up that we are under A New Covenant? Again, Augustine’s words, not Paul’s nor Jesus.

Oh yes, you’re not a Calvinist. You developed your own doctrine. I forgot.PS – I heard that OxyClean is good for manure stains. (Don’t worry, folks. I’m not being mean here. I just heard she needed something to take out that type of stain. OxyClean is really good, though I can’t stand those Billy Mays infomercials).



Posted on
June 26, 2009 2:54 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Another thing that Paul is accused of, and some Christians are perpetuating, is that Calvin and Augustine claim that the verse 2 Corinthians 13:5, Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you– unless indeed you fail the test? means that this verse is applied to UNBELIEVERS, when it is actually applied to believers. So, it’s possible for Christians to fail the test, as described in this verse. If a Christian continues in habitual, unrepented sin, they WILL separate themselves from God.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:10 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: So, you are saying they were physically immortal? That is what I am saying is silly. It blatantly contradicts science and everything we know about the world. Everything that is born, dies. How can anyone take you seriously when you say silly things such as this?

LEE: Yes, orthodox Christianity teaches that the first humans were created immortal, that is, they would not get sick and die. Until they sinned. THEN death entered the picture.

How is reincarnation any more scientific than believing humans were created immortal? Science is not infallible. Many people seem to worship science. But what does science really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it. So science is not infallible. Science can’t answer whether God or a god exists or not; science can’t tell me whether red is a better color than green; science can’t prove that love exists. Science can’t explain why we’re here or what our purpose is.

And doesn’t science rely upon the mind, and upon the intellect? Science would say reincarnatiuon is just as impossible as physical immortality. Tell a biologist that your proof that you’ve been reincarnated is your experience and she’ll laugh you out of the room. Again, the teaching of orthodox Christianity and Judaism that the first humans were created physically immortal is no more ridiculous than believing each person is reincarnated again and again. I might ask you How can anyone take you seriously when you say silly things such as reincarnation? Reincarnation makes even less sense scientifically than immortality does. All I’m telling you is what authentic Christians believe and why we believe it.

You said it yourself, Everything WE KNOW about the world. Isn’t it aarrogant to assume we know everything? In the words of Hamlet, There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in all your philosophy.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:14 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Rosita,

Whether the Pauline religion was proclaimed by Paul, or invented by others, the conclusion is the same — it is not the true teaching of Jesus, but rather a mythological religion about Jesus which is false. Jesus conceived of every living being as the child of one Father, and the direct inheritor of the blessing from, and union with, the spiritual Presence of the Divine. He did not teach that simply adopting some belief about his sacrifice would bestow salvation. Jesus taught that people can and should repent of sin, or the tendency to separate from God, and that such repentance purifies people, and that such self-purification, rather than any participation or belief in ritual or substitute sacrifices, is the basic means for entering into union with the Divine Spirit.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:14 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Paul of Tarsus was a conventional Jew, trained in the sectarian rabbinical system of his time. He was not taught by Jesus or the disciples of Jesus, nor does the point of view expressed in his letters represent the true teaching of Jesus. At some point, Paul had a mystical experience which he associated with Jesus, and he then proceeded to develop his own Pauline religion which contradicted the teachings of Jesus, and does not accomplish what it claims — enable the individual to attain salvation by simply witnessing or believing in Jesus’ sacrifice. Therefore, Paul’s teachings should be criticized and ultimately rejected.

LEE: Paul of Tarsus had a personal encounter with the bodily resurrected Christ. And it is an undisputable fact that Paul’s letters are our first written witnesses to Jesus and his death, burial and resurrection. Paul’s first letter, Galatians, was written ca. 49 AD, whereas the first gospel wasn’t written until ca. 60-65 AD at the earliest. I Corinthians was written ca. 55 AD, and chapter 15, vss. 3-7, contains an early Christian credal statemt that has been dated to ca. 33-35 AD. Take away Paul and you lose our earliest evidence for Jesus.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:19 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: How is reincarnation any more scientific than believing humans were created immortal?

IFF: Because reincarnation, unlike immortality, does not contradict science. (It cannot be confirmed by science, but that is a different matter.) Physical immortality violates the laws of thermodynamics, which say that all physical systems eventually decay. Reincarnation, since it involves the transmigration of individual consciousness violates no known laws of science that I am aware of (and I’m a scientist). You can throw out science, if you like, but that is simply more reason to call the belief in physical immortality silly.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:24 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ROSITA TANZA: IFeelFree,I have to be honest and fair about Paul. He really didn’t create a religion that contradicted Jesus’ Gospel. All those changes in doctrine and the Pauline religion came centuries afterward when the first two Christian denominations, the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation, decided to change, eliminate and add scriptures in the New Testament. People who are teaching these new doctrines supposedly coming from Paul are actually teaching the doctrines that Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Augustine created out of their own assumptions of what certain scripture meant to them. Now Paul is being blamed for all these false teachings. He must be rolling in his grave! Even those who are Paulinian in belief don’t realize that they’re perpetuating false doctrine attributed to Paul. Remember, many of the scriptures that you are reading in the Bible which have been attributed to Paul were tampered with! Please find non religiously-biased, historical books on Martin Luther, John Calvin, Augustine and many of the contributors to the Protestant Reformation and you will find most of this information.Christians don’t want to believe that they are reading a book that has been tampered with by Men, so they are letting themselves be deceived by many man-made doctrines.

LEE: Rosita, which biblical texts did Catholics and Protestants alter or remove? Which Pauline texts have been tampered with? None.

Paul’s writings have certainly been MISINTERPRETED, but that’s a far cry from saying they’ve been TAMPERED with. I’m not familiar with evidence that Augustine, Luther or Calvin added to or tampered with, anything Paul wrote. They all three wrote COMMENTARIES on what Paul wrote, but none of them added to or edited what he said. That charge is simply inaccurate. You guys really need to back up statements like this with some evidence. In this case you need to do a bit more unbiased study. I suggest reading books BY Augustine, Luther and Calvin in their own words first, and then read books ABOUT them. And I suggest that anyone wishing to understand Paul, first read Paul’s letters themselves, in a modern translation like the NIV or NRSV, then read NT Wright’s Paul, his What St. Paul Really Said: Was Paul of Tarsus Really the Founder of Christianity, or his Paul in Fresh Perspective.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:25 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: Paul of Tarsus had a personal encounter with the bodily resurrected Christ….Take away Paul and you lose our earliest evidence for Jesus.

IFF: It is my understanding that Paul experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus, but not an actual encounter with Jesus in the flesh. If so, his testimony must be accorded less weight than the testimony of those who were direct disciples of Jesus. Use Paul’s testimony as evidence of the existence of Jesus, if you like, but we cannot have any confidence that what Paul proclaimed was what Jesus taught.




In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 3:36 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Because reincarnation, unlike immortality, does not contradict science. (It cannot be confirmed by science, but that is a different matter.) Physical immortality violates the laws of thermodynamics, which say that all physical systems eventually decay. Reincarnation, since it involves the transmigration of individual consciousness violates no known laws of science that I am aware of (and I’m a scientist). You can throw out science, if you like, but that is simply more reason to call the belief in physical immortality silly.

LEE: I’m not throwing out science. I happen to support scientific inquiry, as have all right thkining Christians down through the centuries. For centuries the primary sponsor of scientific inquiry in Europe was the Roman Catholic Church, whom you apparently think silly for believing in physical immortality. Many of the greatest scientic discoveries in history were made by Christians, who believed in immortality.

All I’m saying is that God and his realm exist outside of science. If God created the universe, then he created the laws and principles by which the universe functions. One proof that God existed for Catholic and Protestant scientists was their observastions of an ordered universe that functioned according to precise laws.

But we humans aren’t God, thus don’t know everything. And there are certain issues science can’t address. For example, science can’t prove or disprove the existence of God or the soul. Or of love. Or of justice. Or of good and evil.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 4:22 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
Yes, IFeelFree, I believe what you are saying. I’m trying to make the point that many of the teachings attributed to Paul were not created by Paul. Do you understand? There is no Pauline religion, except the Paulinian religion that fanatical believers in Paul are creating. Paul even told the folks at the Areopagus that THEY were children of God, even if they weren’t Christians. Many Christians today are the ones making the claim that only believers are God’s children. Many times I’ve brought up that the reason why Jesus came to the Jews and offered himself as a sacrifice was to satisfy their need for a blood sacrifice. In that culture, both Jews and many other gentile cultures required a living sacrifice to bring before God so He would supposedly forgive them. God was telling them all, through Jesus, that they didn’t need to sacrifice anything in order to please God, but if they wanted a sacrifice so badly, God said that He had sent Jesus to be that final sacrifice, God’s own son, so they would stop sacrificing unto God when He didn’t require them to do so. Many have misunderstood this action by Jesus and have claimed it as the final sacrifice for forgiving all sin. All God has ever required was faith in Him, and repentance when they sinned. No sacrifice. Sacrifices have always been Man’s idea, but many doctrines have been created to claim that God required a sacrifice. Do you understand what I’m saying?

Paul taught the same message. We don’t need to follow laws created by Man during Old Testament times, because they had never been implemented by God in the first place. Paul said that if there was ANY type of law, they would be written on our hearts. Both Jesus and Paul agreed that no participation or beliefs in rituals nor substitute sacrifices was necessary. Unfortunately, mainstream Christianity teaches the contrary, and because of this, many have created different kinds of doctrines underlining what true salvation is, and what being a true Christian is. They’re still missing the point that Jesus tried to make. They are believing altered scriptures and not realizing that they are.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 4:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 26, 2009 4:33 PM PDT

Rosita Tanza says:
LEE: Rosita, which biblical texts did Catholics and Protestants alter or remove? Which Pauline texts have been tampered with? None.

Lee: I’ve been posting them in other discussions on the Christianity forum. Surely you can find them.

Again, here’s one example, with the book you can purchase and read on your own.

Quote: Notice a change he admitted to regarding Romans 3:28 (concerning Martin Luther): You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: `Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word `alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

Quote: …Martin Luther would once again emphasize…that we are justified by faith alone, apart from the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28), adding the German word allein (alone) in his translation of the Greek text. There is certainly a trace of Marcion in Luther’s move (Brown HOJ. Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1988, pp. 64-65).

Quote: He also made another change in Romans. Romans 4:15 states, …because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Yet in his German translation, Martin Luther added the word ‘only’ before the term ‘wrath’ to Romans 4:15 (O’Hare, p. 201).

This presumably was to attempt to justify his position to discredit the law.

Quote: Martin Luther has also been charged with intentionally mistranslating Matthew 3:2, Acts 19:18, and many other scriptures (ibid, p. 200).

Matthew 3:2 states, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!.

Martin Luther, in his German translation, changed the word ‘repent’ to ‘mend’ or ‘do better’ (ibid, p. 201), presumably to justify his position that one does not need to obey God’s laws through repentance.

Martin Luther, for example, taught, Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

He seemed to overlook what the Book of Hebrews taught: For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27).

The Bible, in Acts 19:18, states, And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds…Yet Martin Luther rendered it, they acknowledged the miracles of the Apostles (O’Hare, p. 201).

Quote: Martin Luther also taught, And John 1 says: The Word was made flesh, when in our judgment it would have been better said, The Word was incarnate, or made fleshly (Disputation On the Divinity and Humanity of Christ February 27, 1540 conducted by Dr. Martin Luther, 1483-1546 translated from the Latin text WA 39/2, pp. 92-121 by Christopher B. Brown).

This was apparently done to justify his belief that Jesus was fully God and fully human while on the earth.

As Martin Luther correctly pointed out, John 1:14 states that the Word was made flesh, yet John 1:14, combined with Philippians 2:6-7 show that Jesus ‘emptied Himself’ (the proper Greek translation; see Green JP. Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, 3rd ed., 1996, p. 607) of His divinity while on the earth.If not, He could not have been tempted as we are, which He was, For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin Hebrews 4:15-16).



In reply to an earlier post on
June 26, 2009 5:08 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Rosita,

I see what you are saying. However, it is my understanding that Paul believed that faith or systematic belief in the effective power of Jesus’ self-sacrifice brings everyone to eventual union with God. Jesus, on the other hand taught the way of self-transcending love of God, and ultimate inherence in God expressed in daily life via self-transcending love, or tolerance and service, of all living beings. Jesus did not subscribe to the view that living beings are inherently evil or inherently separated from God. He described every living being as a child of One Father. Jesus taught that human beings are tending to separate themselves from the Spirit-Presence of the Divine, but that sin (or all that people do or think or believe that separates them from God or obstructs their Union with God and Divine Happiness) is not inherent. It is through repentance of sin, disciplined living, and purifying spiritual practice that we are finally freed of the delusion of separation from God, and so freed of sin.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 1:23 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 1:25 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 1:27 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
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June 27, 2009 1:32 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 7:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 27, 2009 7:10 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>I’m trying to make the point that many of the teachings attributed to Paul were not created by Paul.

I’d agree to some at least came from elsewhere, can’t speak as to many.

>they would be written on our hearts.

I agree very much so with that. I’ve found some stuff that I was living at the heart, but couldn’t understand fully with the mind, and vice-versa. But more and more it’s coming from the heart (so to speak).

Islam says something similar, as I believe does Bahai.

Of course it also represents a problem living within human society.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 7:13 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I already know my destiny, and my past,Anyway since we’re playing a game, what better thing to play with.



Posted on
June 27, 2009 7:21 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan Bryan,

This is NOT a game. Its a warfare, bud. YOUR eternal destiny is at stake. God would not have left all of heaven to come to this stinkin place to die for YOUR sins and mine if all it was was a game.

Please do NOT insult His supreme sacrifice in such a cavalier manner. OY VEY



In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 10:54 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
Posted on
June 27, 2009 11:00 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Paul…It is only applicable to them that BELIEVE.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 11:36 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
It’s a game we play.

And this is part of Heaven.

Humanity just tries to turn it into hell.

And sorry, there are sacrifices greater than you know.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 27, 2009 11:37 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 28, 2009 8:03 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
At least for those that care to help others.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 1:41 AM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 1:47 AM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
Science would say reincarnatiuon is just as impossible as physical immortality.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed…Under that umbrella, is it not possible?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 4:33 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:09 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 6:23 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan,

God does NOT play games. This is serious spiritual WARFARE. God has separate plans and purposes for Heaven and Earth, and this is certainly NOT heaven.

The ONLY sacrifice YOU should be interested in is the one made by Jesus Christ for YOU on Calvary. Without it, you will STAY in your prideful new age opinions and leave this world without God and LOST.

I don’t want that to happen to you, and neither does God.

No games, Bryan. This is life and death SERIOUS.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 8:02 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Energy cannot be created nor destroyed…Under that umbrella, is it not possible?

From a spiritual perspective, the phrase would be ‘Tht which has been created can not be destroyed, only changed in form’



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 8:04 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
all souls progress from one form to another….



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 8:09 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 28, 2009 8:25 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I didn’t say God plays games, though he could use a little entertainment……I said we did.

As for this mot being Heaven, maybe not to you, but there are things to enjoy here you can’t enjoy in heaven, so for me it’s all the same…..And God never looses anybody.



Posted on
June 28, 2009 8:57 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan,

We all start out in this world LOST. God has done all that is necessary to save us from ourselves, satan and sin. We must come to Him BELIEVING that He did all that was necessary at the Cross in order to BE SAVED.

YOU choose today where you will spend eternity. Heaven or Hell. YOUR choice.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 10:54 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Already chosen:Endless Dream – Conjure OneIt’s all coming back to me nowThat strange and almost endless dreamWhere I was you and you were meYou opened up your eyes and I could seeThat you were falling from the worldAs aimless as a shooting star in orbit around meThinking I was somebody elseAnd terrified to look at me and see yourself, well…You are like a dreamAnd I am just a trip that you are onWhen the trip is over you will go backTo the places that you once belovedYou will look for comfort thereAnd when you do you’ll find that it has goneThat is when you’ll dream a dreamWhere I am you and you are meAnd then you’ll know my loveSo don’t be afraidYour heart is in meAnd it’s racing so fast nowCause everything we ever were or ever will beIs shapeless as a changing cloudYour letter written on the skyI’m needing now to read it through my eyesWhen you see just what I seeThen tenderly watch it changeAnd just let it beCause I am like a dreamAnd you are just a trip that I am onWhen the trip is over I will go backTo the places that I once belovedAnd I will look for comfort thereAnd when I do I know it will be goneThat is when I’ll dream a dreamWhere I am you and you are meAnd then I’ll know your love…so quiet now…This is just some trip that we are onWhen the trip is over we will think of thisAs someplace that we once belovedWhen I find no comfort hereI’ll look again to find it in your armsThat is where I’ll dream a dreamWhere I am you and you are meAnd that’s where I know love



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 11:25 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
CHRISTINE

AHA finally you come out with it!!! I have been waiting and waiting I HAVE asked you over and over

WHAT IS THE PLAN OF GOD??? THE MYSTERY WHICH YOU THINK YOU KNOW??

You never answer,,,And now out of your mouth comes THE ANSWER, YOU DONT KNOW

I didnt think you did, FEW INCARNATE DO! I have given you clues on many occasions, YOU SAID God has separate plans and purposes for Heaven and Earth, and this is certainly not Heaven

Christine I do not disagree with all your stuff However as I have always said YOU are not Spiritually Mature enoughto Make YOUR POV through SCRIPTURE, and this is whats necessary to PROVE your POV to the BLINDyou are seeking to Convince…. To those of us who understand, and have the Spiritual Ability toFILL IN THE GAPS your Presentations lack, You can make sense, to others ,the masses you FAIL

You are forced to CREATE non Biblical words to SOLIDFY your BIBLICAL POV, This will not work with thosewho dont share your POV, the ones you are really trying to convince!

Back to the PLAN YOU SAID GOD HAS SEPARATE PLANS AND PURPOSES FOR HEAVEN AND EARTH

SORRY YOU ERR , ONE origional; PLAN from the beginning there is NO separate PLAN

THE PLAN on EARTH FULLFILLS the HEAVENLY PLAN

AND THE PLAN IN HEAVEN FULLFILLS THE EARTHLY PLAN

THE PLAN IN BOTH REALMS FULLFILS THE OVER ALL PLAN WHICH GOD HAS ORDAINED SINCE THE CREATION OF THE EARTH,

WITHOUT THE EARTH, THERE CAN BE NO HEAVEN, GODS PURPOSE FOR HEAVEN

< CAN ONLY BE FULLFILLED ON THE EARTH!!

Christine I have told you before, The clue to the OVERALL PLAN is contained in the PRAYER OUR FATHER

BRYAN IS NOT QUOTING YOU new age opinions, He is just telling YOU stuff ALL ANGELS KNOW!!

But CHRISTINE I am waiting with baited breath for YOU TO TELL ME THE PLAN YOU think You KNOW

If you understand the PLAN, It would CHANGE your THEOLOGY!

Peace ALLFARAA




In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 11:31 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
CHRISTNE

You said to BRYAN This is SERIOUS SPIRITUAL WARFARE..Christine!

Your warfare seems to be with the Catholics,and anyone else who does not side with YOU,YOUR TRUE OPPONENT, WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW!!Has allready defeated YOU!You have made enemies of all who do not agree with you! Causing DIVISION IN CHRIST!YOUR SPIRITUAL OPPONENT LAUGHS AT YOU!!Do you know who your opponent is?? HE KNOWS YOU,



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 6:00 PM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
God does NOT play games.

So, because Paul doesn’t talk about Job, it doesn’t matter, right?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 28, 2009 6:05 PM PDT

CharlieRitz says:
God has done all that is necessary to save us from ourselves, satan and sin. We must come to Him BELIEVING that He did all that was necessary at the Cross in order to BE SAVED.

The two sentences contradict each other. If He did all that was necessary, then we wouldn’t have to believe in Christ dying and being ressurected, would we?

It’s like saying, I’ve done everything necessary for our family to take a vacation, except put gas in the car. That seems to be a crucial part to getting where one wants to go, correct?

YOU choose today where you will spend eternity. Heaven or Hell. YOUR choice.

So you work for an advertising agency, or are you THAT influenced by roadiside billboards? Pretty sure I saw that in Kentucky once.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 29, 2009 7:25 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Dear all, sorry not had time to read all the recent messages yet. Just lost a friend unexpectedly at weekend so that’s why l’ve been so quiet!

Just posting this item…..well just because.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

A sharp tongue can cut your own throat.

If you want your dreams to come true, you musn’t oversleep.

Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important.

The best vitamin for making friends..B1.

The happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts.

The heaviset thing you carry is a grudge.

One thing you can still keep..is your word.

You lie the loudest when you lie to yourself.

If you lack the courage to start, you have already finnished.

One thing you can’t recycle is wasted time

and dreams won’t work unless you do.

Your mind is like a paracute..it functions only when open.

The ten commandments are not multiple choice.

The pursuit of happiness is the chase of a lifetime.

It’s nevertoo late to become what you might have been.

Life is too short to wake up with regrets. So love the peoplewho treat you right. Forget about the one’s who don’t.

Believe everything happens for a reason. If you get a second chance,grab it with both hands.

If it changes your life, let it.

Nobody said life would be easy, they just promised it would be worth it.

Sometimes we just don’t realise that real friendship means until it is too late. LS



Posted on
June 29, 2009 8:20 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
I wonder, why believers don’t respond to my simple questions…

>>I said

>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}

>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}

>>

>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily

>>resurrected believers when {B} happens? If Lee, Rosita,

>>Christine or anyone says {B} cannot happen, I am out of

>>here…

Also, earlier, I had asked for a good definition for the word soul, that we can find in the Holy books of the really-truly-totally-true religions. Not from any other source. I want direct quotes from the scriptures, not opinions.

Lets see answers to such simple questions before getting to complicated questions like, Reincarnation -vs- Science.



Posted on
June 29, 2009 10:56 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Dear Dogma,

I’m not real sure just what it is you are asking here. The bible tells us that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die.

When believers are resurrected they will get a NEW body. One that is flesh and bone…not flesh and blood. It will be a body such as Christ has, and will not have to deal with aging, death, illness or the like. THAT new body will never die but will live on for eternity….neat, ehh?

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I hope this helps

Unless one is fortunate enough to be taken before death in the rapture, one can pretty much count on physically experiencing death at one time or another.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 29, 2009 11:07 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
The spiritual body is not a physical body. It does not exist in the physical realm, but in the spiritual or subtle or higher astral realm. All physical bodies are governed by physical laws, such as thermodynamics, which insure that they will eventually decay and die. The spiritual realm is not governed by such laws.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 29, 2009 11:11 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 29, 2009 11:14 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 12:43 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
L.S., here are two for you and your friend:

I Will Remember YouI will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories Remember the good times that we had? I let them slip away from us when things got bad How clearly I first saw you smilin’ in the sun Wanna feel your warmth upon me, I wanna be the one I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories I’m so tired but I can’t sleep Standin’ on the edge of something much too deep It’s funny how we feel so much but we cannot say a word We are screaming inside, but we can’t be heard But I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories I’m so afraid to love you, but more afraid to lose Clinging to a past that doesn’t let me choose Once there was a darkness, deep and endless night You gave me everything you had, oh you gave me light And I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories And I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories Weep not for the memories———————–There’s no time for usThere’s no place for usWhat is this thing that builds our dreams yet slips away from usWho wants to live foreverWho wants to live forever….?There’s no chance for usIt’s all decided for usThis world has only one sweet moment set aside for usWho wants to live foreverWho wants to live forever?Who dares to love forever?When love must dieBut touch my tears with your lipsTouch my world with your fingertipsAnd we can have foreverAnd we can love foreverForever is our todayWho wants to live foreverWho wants to live forever?Forever is our todayWho waits forever anyway?



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 12:44 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Actually from what I understand there is a rapture, just not quite in the way specified, more a removal of the ego.

Shiva drinking the poison from the world ocean.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:10 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Paul said:

The man that is appointed to die is the high priest once a year thru the sacrifices of a lamb or whatever during the feast of passover, the man isn’t just anybody

What the Bible says:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto MEN once to die, but after this the judgment:

My comment:

Where are you getting your material? The high priest didn’t die and you don’t know what you are talking about!

The verse says MEN…all of us are appointed ONCE to die…and then comes the judgment. Don’t GUESS at things that you clearly don’t understand.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:14 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Bryan Bryan,

The greek word is Harpazo, which means a violent snatching away from one realm to the next. It has nothing whatsoever to do with an ego.

Get your truth from what God has revealed in His Word and be saved.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:38 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 30, 2009 7:38 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
One of the funny things about removing the ego, is you move from one realm to the next………so that could match what you said……



Posted on
June 30, 2009 7:44 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 30, 2009 7:48 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Not quite, Bryan. Those believers who are living at the time of Christs return in the AIR to gather His BODY CHURCH, will be transported and changed from earthly beings to heavenly beings in the twinkling of an eye. They will never experience physical death. They will experience what was promised ONLY to those who are members of Christs body thru belief in the finished work of Christ on their behalf. So you see, the rapture, or the taking away of Gods saints, is a specific EVENT that is part of the body of truth given to Paul which was KEPT SECRET since the beginning of the world, and revealed in due time.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 8:15 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
I agree with your first statement. It is the individual ‘letting go’ (annihilation) of the individual-self-identity and merging back into the supreme consciousness.

>>Shiva drinking the poison from the world ocean.

I think you are referring to Shiva drinking the poison at the beginning of ‘creation’, churning out from the milky ocean (hot ‘gases’ glowing blindingly white and spinning – looks like churning milk/yogurt). The moment after the golden egg (hiranyagarba) bursts open, milky ocean is formed and it starts spinning, particle/matter starts forming and antiparticle/matter also is born – the ‘poison’ in the story refers to the latter. Shiva’s consort, Shakti, stops Him from drinking it (by chocking his throat), but too late, a tiny drop enters His throat and is held/stopped there. This tiny imbalance allows ‘creation’ to continue, while annihilation goes on simultaneously. Now, I think, because He has this ‘poison’ He becomes the ‘annihilator’ among the ‘Trinity’.

[QUOTE from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-matter%5D

The amount of matter presently observable in the universe only requires an imbalance in the early universe on the order of one extra matter particle per billion matter-antimatter particle pairs.

[END QUOTE]



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 8:44 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 30, 2009 8:46 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>I think you are referring to Shiva drinking the poison at the beginning of ‘creation’, churning out from the milky ocean (hot ‘gases’ glowing blindingly

>white and spinning – looks like churning milk/yogurt). The moment after the golden egg (hiranyagarba) bursts open, milky ocean is formed and it

>starts spinning, particle/matter starts forming and antiparticle/matter also is born – the ‘poison’ in the story refers to the latter. Shiva’s consort,

>Shakti, stops Him from drinking it (by chocking his throat), but too late, a tiny drop enters His throat and is held/stopped there. This tiny imbalance

>allows ‘creation’ to continue, while annihilation goes on simultaneously. Now, I think, because He has this ‘poison’ He becomes the ‘annihilator’ among

>the ‘Trinity’.

Pretty much, but I have some added clarifications.

The Ego is our sense perceptor of ‘reality’, it is the conduit through which all our informatio flows. As it so happens it resides in the throat. There are two teachers that deal with it, the first is the Nagual which teaches how to track and to some extent control the Ego. Shiva is the second who teaches how to remove the Ego.

One of Siva’s powers is to manipulate Shakti, to remove that part of humanities ego’s who are prepared for it (there’s more connections to this, but it’s the plan and simple explanation).

P.S. Our ego is also the co-creator of this conceptual reality.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 10:21 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Rosita, all of these translations of Luther are known and have been studied and debated for literally centuries. This is MUCH different than the impression you gave of wholesale editing and corrupting by Protestants.

Its very easy to misinterpret what Luther wrote-people do it here in these forums all the time.

So there’s nothing at all sinister in what Luther or any other Protestant Reformer wrote or taught.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 10:27 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
CHARLIERITZ: God has done all that is necessary to save us from ourselves, satan and sin. We must come to Him BELIEVING that He did all that was necessary at the Cross in order to BE SAVED.

The two sentences contradict each other. If He did all that was necessary, then we wouldn’t have to believe in Christ dying and being ressurected, would we?LEE: Not at all. If a doctor says I can heal you with surgery, the fact that you have to submit to the surgery doesn’t negate that the doctor saved you. Or if a rich benefactor gives me $5,000 I still have to accept it in order to have it and use it. That’s the way it is with Christ’s sacrifice. I have to believe in it and then accept it. If I choose not to believe in it or accept it, it does me about as much good as the guy who could be healed with surgey, but opts not to believe the doctor’s diagnosis or undergo the surgery.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 10:43 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
PAS: The spiritual realm is not the astral plane which is the soul realm and deals with the past, there is another realm which is the metaphysical realm and also the mystical realm.

IFF: There are higher realms, such as the mental and causal planes. However, the higher astral plane is the one to which the majority of spiritually advanced human souls go upon death. The spiritual realm is a general term referring to all of the heaven worlds — higher astral, mental, causal.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 11:03 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 30, 2009 11:05 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
DOGMATOXIN: I wonder, why believers don’t respond to my simple questions…>>I said>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}>>>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily>>resurrected believers when {B} happens? If Lee, Rosita,>>Christine or anyone says {B} cannot happen, I am out of>>here…Also, earlier, I had asked for a good definition for the word soul, that we can find in the Holy books of the really-truly-totally-true religions. Not from any other source. I want direct quotes from the scriptures, not opinions.Lets see answers to such simple questions before getting to complicated questions like, Reincarnation -vs- Science.

LEE: The GK word usually translated soul in the New Testament is psych and Strong’s defines it as:

1) breath

a) the breath of life

1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animals

b) of men

b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

The ancient Hebrews didn’t make a distinction between body/soul. A person was both. Thus when the Hebrew Bible says soul it usually means person. The Greeks, on the other hand, influenced by Plato, taught that only the abstract is real, thus a person’s soul was the real them, as opposed to their physical bodies. The material world was simply a shadow of the true, ultimate, spiritual reality. Thus in Platonic thought, our bodies die and crumble to dust, while our souls are eternal, and live on forever. No self-respecting Greek expected, or wanted, to be bodily resurrected, which is exactly what Jews and Christians said would happen to all of YHWH’s faithful.

Jesus was bodily resurrected-he took pains to reassure his scared disciples that he wasn’t a ghost or spirit, then he ate a meal with them to prove it. Later, Thomas was actuallly allowed to touch his wound scars. Ghosts don’t eat or have physical wound scars.

When Paul contrasts natural bodies and spiritual resurrection bodies in I Corinthians 15, esp. vs. 44, he isn’t making a disctinction between physical and non-physical bodies. The word translated natural in the KJV is the GK word psychikos, Strong’s G5591, and Strong’s defines it as:

1) of or belonging to breath

a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath

1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes

b) governed by breath

1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

The word translated spiritual is pneumatikos, Strong’s G4151, and Strong’s defines it as:

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ

a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

3) belonging to the Divine Spirit

a) of God the Holy Spirit

b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God

4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

According to GK scholar Bishop NT Wright, GK adjectives ending in -ikos refer, not to what something is composed of, but what powers or animates it. Thus, Paul is talking about our present, mortal physical bodies whicch are animated by the breath of life and also our fallen, sinful, selfish desires, contrasted with our future, resurrection body-still physical-only now powered directly by God’s Spirit.

Christianity (based on the original Jewish belief), teaches that the universe was originally created by YHWH (God) but was created to be eternal. However YHWH gave humans the free moral choice to walk in communion with him, or do our own thing and go our own way. But he warned us what would inevitably happen if we chose the latter option-physical and spiritual death. Separation from YHWH, the source of our existence. Well, humans chose to go our own way and reject God’s warnings. Thus, separation from God, as well as spiritual and physical death, and not only that, but according to Paul in Romans 8, all of creation was negatively affected by the fall.

Enter Jesus, God in human form. Jesus came to fix what was broken by sin in the fall. Jesus came to give believers immortal physical life, and to restore the balance that was broken in nature. Christianity looks, not for disembodied souls to go to heaven, but to bodily resurrected people living forever on a paradise earth, with Christ in our midst.

Romans 8:11; 18-24:And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. . . .I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21

that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. More later.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 11:47 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
The doctor hasn’t saved you till he does the surgery, and finds out what the results are.

Not to mention, the doctor lost a lot of patients along the way, because his initial diagnoses was wrong.

And not to mention further, that the medication he gave some wasn’t strong enough or the wrong medication entirely.

So obviously the God in the Bible is a total failure and incompetent, lacks justice and mercy, and not very wise.



Posted on
June 30, 2009 1:00 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Oh Bryan,

The very God you blaspheme is the One to whom you will bow your knee…and then you will see who was a failure, incompetent and lacking justice and mercy, and most of all who was NOT wise at all…it will be YOU.

What a horrible thing to have to live with for eternity….knowledge that your pride and self centeredness was the only thing that kept you from accessing all that God provided for you as a GIFT.

The God in the bible wins in the end…I have read the end of the story…and He is more than competent, full of justice and mercy, and gives us GRACE that we do not deserve out of His great love for us. He IS the ONLY wise God, and you are but one of His ungrateful creations.

You should be ashamed of yourself for saying such things about such an awesome God!

You will be the one yelling like a mashed indian when shown the door that YOU picked for eternity! Pride is a terrible thing, and so is thinking that YOU know more than the God who made you.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 1:34 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 30, 2009 1:35 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
You’re still funny……The only God I know of that resembles your description was someone else meeting there ego. Was a rather funny event.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 2:31 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Thank you Bryan for your lovely poems. Much appreiciated.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it

or who said it, not even if

l have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

-Buddha




In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 2:50 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya DogmaToxin, Sorry l don’t have any direct quotes from the Bible about the soul but just thought you might find this interesting? As spirituality is being researched by science so hopefully the soul may be next? Fingerprints of God-the search for the science of spirituality, by Barbara Bradley Hagerty (2009)

These are some of the subjects she is investigating. Exploring startling discoveris that science is making about how faith and spirituality affect us physically, emotionally and spiritually. She probes the work of some of the world’s top scientists to describe what their groundbreaking research reveals about human spiritual experience.

Is the spiritual experience real? Or is it delusion?

When we pray, what happens?

Does consciouness depend entirely on your brain and the unique way it works? Or can it operate when the brain doesn’t?

One step at a time as they say perhaps. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 3:06 PM PDT

Kevin Bold says:

Laura Stanton says: Does anyone know where l can find further information on history of the bible?Am especially interested in changes made to the bible removing references to reincarnation, apparently made it easier to control the masses.

There are many excellent histories of the Bible available (like _Where We Got the Bible… Our Debt to the Catholic Church_ by Bishop Henry G. Graham). But I doubt you’ll find proof there were referrences to reincarnation which were deleted. No one’s ever found a manuscript of one of the canonical books which contained them.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 3:10 PM PDT

Kevin Bold says:

Laura Stanton says: Apparently a transcript from early Christian bible exists translated from scripts by a man named Nan Hamadi. Elaine Pagel discusses in her book The Gnostic Gospels. Sorry not seen her book yet, so don’t have the publisher or year as yet. Reincarnation is in Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalen, Judas etc.etc. Therefore must also have been part of Jesus’s teachings if these teachings where then removed by early Christian authorities.

The Gnostic Gospels were written long after the canonical gospels were. They were never in the Bible. The Church rejected them because they contained many things which Jesus didn’t teach — like reincarnation.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 4:41 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Having read them, I can’t understand all this fascination with the Nag Hammadi texts. They read like really bizarre science fiction to me. Plus, the way modern neo-Gnostics read/interpret them, they mean whatever the reader thinks they mean. There’s basically no wrong interpretation.

People have reinterpreted ancient Gnosticism, much like modern Wiccans have reinterpreted ancient Celtic spirituality. When in reality, the original, authentic, Gnostic worldview is very glum and depressing. The world is basically a nasty place you’d better escape from ASAP. Nature-bad. Procreation/sex-bad. Women-generally, bad. Salvation-only available to a few people enlightened enough to grasp the secret teachings necessary to achieve gnosis and free their souls from the imprisonment of bodily physical existence.

This doesn’t exactly sound like a religious faith I’d be eager to sign up for, less still like the happy, tolerant, non-dogmatic, non-judgmental people, sitting in a circle, holding hands, and singing Kum-ba-Ya, they’re often portrayed as.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 4:41 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on June 30, 2009 4:41 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Deleted double post.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 4:44 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Anyone who cares to dig into the historical records of the early church will see that between the third and the fifth century, the Roman Catholic church issued a number of documents that effectively banned the idea of reincarnation as heresy. The fact that the church made a determined effort to ban reincarnation as heresy demonstrates that the concept of reincarnation was part of early Christianity. For more information, see, Why Jesus Taught Reincarnation by Herbert Puryear, and Reincarnation for the Christian by Dr. Quincy Howe, Jr.



Posted on
June 30, 2009 7:09 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
It is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and THEN comes the Judgment.

I think God got it right.



Posted on
June 30, 2009 7:41 PM PDT

Allan says:
Doesn’t it bother anyone here that your arguments are very old hat?

Humanity has been around for more than 400,000 years, our lot at least 200,000. The basic discussion you are re-hashing has been around for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, ever since our forebears became aware of their mortality.

To understand how our search has developed one must go back much further than 2000-3000 years. The Sumerians and Egyptians did it much better, as did the Indians. The Hebrews merely picked up their scraps and re-wrote them for their own purposes.

The search ossified once Constantine’s mob got their hands on his spears and catapults.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:46 PM PDT

Allan says:
IFF, I hope you are not wasting your time. One only needs to read up on all the battles Rome fought with those who disagreed with it to understand the pure political spin which developed over the centuries.

Many of the people on this and other threads do not have the courage to carry out any proper research. They have to stick to the party line — I’ve had some interesting discussions where priests and parsons alike admit there is much they do not reveal to the pew-warmers.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:51 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I say the same when I let my better moments go through.

As for myself, sometimes even I don’t believe what I believe.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:52 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>There’s basically no wrong interpretation.

God’s amazing isn’t he/she……..LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 7:56 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Many of the people on this and other threads do not have the courage to carry out any proper research. They have to stick to the party line — I’ve

>had some interesting discussions where priests and parsons alike admit there is much they do not reveal to the pew-warmers.

I’ve had that happen (and seminary students), always thought it was sort of weird and unusual till I woke up. And realized they were guided to give me some information I would need.



In reply to an earlier post on
June 30, 2009 8:21 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Allan: IFF, I hope you are not wasting your time.

IFF: Its not a problem as long as I have a playful attitude about it all. Everyone accepts as much truth as they can without creating too much cognitive dissonance, I suppose.



Posted on
July 1, 2009 1:01 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 1:13 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 1, 2009 1:16 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Anyone who cares to dig into the historical records of the early church will see that between the third and the fifth century, the Roman Catholic church issued a number of documents that effectively banned the idea of reincarnation as heresy. The fact that the church made a determined effort to ban reincarnation as heresy demonstrates that the concept of reincarnation was part of early Christianity. For more information, see, Why Jesus Taught Reincarnation by Herbert Puryear, and Reincarnation for the Christian by Dr. Quincy Howe, Jr.

LEE: This makes no sense. Why would early Christians (the Catholic Church) ban teachings of the early Church (reincarnation)?

As for these authors, what are their credentials that they’re able to write about how the church supposedly banned Jesus’ teaching on reincarnation? Do they have degrees in early Christian history? Patristic studies?

I’m aware that the Church repudiated the Gnostic heresy (it started in the NT; see, for example, I Timothy 1 and I and II John), but I’ve been studying early Christianity for twenty years and I’ve never seen a Christian reference to reincarnation. Origen doesn’t count because he taught the preexistence of souls, not that said souls get reincarnated. There’s a big difference.

So which documents are you referring to? I’m not familar with them.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 1:14 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ALLAN: Many of the people on this and other threads do not have the courage to carry out any proper research. They have to stick to the party line — I’ve had some interesting discussions where priests and parsons alike admit there is much they do not reveal to the pew-warmers.

LEE: Like what, exactly?

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 1:20 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Jesus was a 1st century, 2nd Temple Jew. Jesus took his ideas from the orthodox Judaism of his ancestors. Christianity bases its views of death and the afterlife upon what Jesus said. Neither of which taught reincarnation. Somebody please quote a reference from any ancient Jewish religious text (OT Torah, intertestamental text, like I or II Maccabees, Wisdom, the DSS, etc.) that clearly teaches reincarnation. I’m sorry, but it just ain’t there, folks!

Pax.Lee.



Posted on
July 1, 2009 1:53 PM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Amen, Lee…its just NOT there!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 2:18 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 1, 2009 2:20 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
When people really want to see something they can see it. That’s what folks are doing with reincarnation and the Bible. They want it to be there so badly that they are blinded by their own biases. And no amount of scholarship or rational argumentation is going to convince them otherwise. Don’t bother me with facts, because I’ve already made up my mind.

People who don’t really understand either the New Testament, Jesus, ancient 2nd Temple Judaism, or Christianity, and who only read books by popular authors with an agenda, will see whatever they want to see. If I wanted to see Jedi Knights or Martha Stewart in the Bible, I could do it. If I wanted to prove that Charlie Chaplin was the antichrist, I could do it. IF I ignored every rule of sound biblical exegesis known to man, that is.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 2:30 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Christine

>>When believers are resurrected they will get a NEW body. One that is flesh and bone…not flesh and blood. [...] THAT new body will never die but will live on for eternity….neat, ehh?

No blood, ehh? Sweet…Lot of silly questions come to my mind… But I desist…

BTW, none of the verses you provided answers any of my questions…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 2:44 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee,

But what Jesus said has been altered and the reasons for this are known – their have been numerous comments contained within this discussion, information you could check out? Therefore?? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:06 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: Hiya Lee,But what Jesus said has been altered and the reasons for this are known – their have been numerous comments contained within this discussion, information you could check out? Therefore?? LS

LEE: Hiya back, Lauren. I first encountered the theory that Jesus/the Bible once taught reincarnation about 20 years ago. I have checked it out-and I just didn’t/don’t see it. I’m not an expert in early/patristic church history, nor am I infallible, but I was raised in the church and I’ve been a Christian since 1982. I’ve been reading and studying early church history and theology (primary and secondary texts) for about 25 years, and, though I still have much to learn, in all that time I haven’t seen one single reference to reincarnation in any ancient Christian (or Jewish) text. The closest you can get is Origen, and he did not teach the transmigration of souls, only their preexistence.You see, on a topic like this, one has to be guided by the actual evidence, which simply doesn’t support the view that Jesus taught reincarnation. In fact, much that he says in the canonical gospels-our best and earliest source for Jesus’ teaching, written between 60-90 AD, unlike the Gnostic gospels, the earliest of which weren’t even written until about 150 AD-contradict the very idea of reincarnation. If one wishes to argue that somebody edited Jesus’ teachings, one would then have to prove who, when and where such editing took place. So far, no one has been able to come up with any evidence that this did, in fact, happen.Jesus MUST be understood within the framework of first-century, 2nd Temple Judaism, and the beliefs it had about such concepts as death and bodily resurrection. Most Jews in Jesus’ day expected that they would die-once-and at the last day when YHWH (God) fully and finally inaugurated his kingdom, they would be bodily resurrected back to life, to live in a recreated world, restored to its pre-fall glory and perfection. Judaism taught that the physical world was a good place, though a good place made bad via Adam’s sin. Further, Judaism made no distinction betwenn body/soul-you need both to have a complete human being, and YHWH intended to save both body AND soul. Thus, the idea of reincarnation in orthodox Judaism is redundant. As also in Christianity, which is the fulfillment of Judaism. YHWH takes away the sins of all who call upon his name via Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Jesus’ death and resurrection conquered, not only sin, but also literal, physical death. We don’t see the final, end result yet, though. That remains for Jesus’ final triumphant return. At that tim,e all YHWH’s faithful will be bodily resurrected, and their souls reunited with their bodies. This is a one-off event, as NT Wright would say.

Thus, the idea that reincarnation was edited out of the Bible is just an urban legend. It simply isn’t true.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 1, 2009 3:08 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: This makes no sense. Why would early Christians (the Catholic Church) ban teachings of the early Church (reincarnation)?

IFF: The concept of reincarnation was perceived to threaten the power of the church. If people had multiple lives in which to attain salvation, then perhaps there is no pressing need to seek it in this life (and so submit to the authority of the church). Therefore, any explicit references to reincarnation were removed from the Bible. Nevertheless, more veiled references remain. For example, And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind? Jesus answered, ‘Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.’ (John 9:1) The disciples ask Jesus if the man himself could have committed the sin that led to his blindness. Given the fact that the man has been blind from birth, we are confronted with a question: When could he have made such transgressions as to make him blind at birth? The only possible answer is in some prenatal state, i.e., a previous life.

Also very suggestive of reincarnation is the episode where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as Elijah. For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come. (Matthew 11:13-14) And the disciples asked him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ But he answered them and said, ‘Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.’ Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist. (Matthew 17:10-13)By identifying John the Baptist as Elijah, Jesus is identifying himself as the Messiah. Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Malachi 4:5) The following verse is used to refute the John the Baptist/Elijah reincarnation connection. It says that John the Baptist possessed,… the spirit and power of Elijah. (Luke 1:17)Those who refute this reincarnation connection say that John the Baptist merely came in the spirit and power of Elijah. However, this is a perfect description of reincarnation: the spirit and power. This is reincarnation – the reincarnation of the spirit.

John carried Elijah’s living spirit, but not his physical memory. And since John did not possess Elijah’s physical memory, he did not possess the memories of being the man Elijah. Thus, John the Baptist denied being Elijah when asked:They asked him, Then who are you? Are you Elijah? He said, I am not. Are you the Prophet? He answered, No. Finally they said, Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself? John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet? I baptize with water, John replied, but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. (John 1:21-27)

But Jesus knew better, and said so in the plainest words possible:This is the one … there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist…. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matthew 11:11-15). It comes down to this: Jesus said John was Elijah, and John said he wasn’t. Who is to be believed – Jesus or John?

There are many other veiled references in the Bible…The early Christians who affirmed reincarnation were the Gnostics (the Gospel of Thomas, the Secret Book of John, Pistis Sophia, the Gospel of Phillip, etc., all of which affirm reincarnation), whom you reject, and Origen, who wrote, The soul has neither beginning nor end… [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives. There was also Clement of Alexandria, who indicated that he possessed the secret teaching handed down from the apostles, stating that this teaching is most carefully guarded [by the church at Alexandria], being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries.

Its not possible for me to do justice to this subject in a short forum post…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:06 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine,

And one could say that yes you die once per life, join the spiritual world and learn about your life’s lessons the positive and negative.. because we do all make mistakes + return to try again. This sounds like a truely loving God to me. What does ‘the judgement’ actually mean to you then? That we are not allowed to make any mistakes at all big or small? Are we not already the most accomplished self punishers? What sort of God could not forgive us, understand and allow us another chance to learn? If he is the Father then obviously we are his children and we all know how challenging this role can be. Does anyone ever stop loving thier own children? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:22 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee just read your other comment, sorry. Re the Nag Hammadi texts and comment from modern neo-Gostics and interpretation they mean whatever the reader thinks they mean. I think this is a wonderful statement and shows the spiritual mystery that is life, and God’s magnificence, and could be viewed as a continual learning experience for all of us. But that’s just my interpretation of course! And l do like singing the Kum-ba-ya song because its chakra linked to the notes. LS God works in mysterious ways as the saying goes. LS




In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:29 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 1, 2009 3:31 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
The Early Church Fathers Taught Bodily Resurrection, Not Reincarnation:

I Clement (ca. 95 AD) Chapter 6 — We Shall Rise Again, Then, as the Scripture Also Testifies. Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the Maker of all things to raise up again those who have piously served Him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird He shows us the mightiness of His power to fulfil His promise? For [the Scripture] says in a certain place, You shall raise me up, and I shall confess to You; and again, I laid down, and slept; I awaked, because You are with me; and again, Job says, you shall raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things. I Clement 24.1-6:Let us consider, beloved, how the Master is continually proving to us that there will be a future resurrection, of which he has made the Lord Jesus Christ the firstling, by raising him from the dead. Let us look, beloved, at the resurrection which is taking place seasonally. Day and night make known the resurrection to us. The night sleeps, the day arises. Consider the plants that grow. How and in what manner does the sowing take place? The sower went forth and cast each of the seeds onto the ground; and they fall to the ground, parched and bare, where they decay. Then from their decay the greatness of the master’s providence raises them up, and from the one grain more grow and bring forth fruit.Polycarp (ca. 69-155 AD), The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14:2:I bless you for because you have considered me worthy of this day and hour, that I might receive a place among the number of martyrs in the cup of your Christ, to the resurrection to eternal life, both of soul and of body, in the incorruptibility of the Holy Spirit. Ignatius (ca. 35/50-ca. 98/117 AD) to the Smyrneans 3:1-2:For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without a body. And straightway they touched Him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Wherefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. And after His resurrection He [both ate with them and drank with them as one in the flesh, though spiritually He was united with the Father].The Apostles’ Creed (ca. 125 AD); . . . I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.Irenaeus (ca. 115/125-aft. 191 AD), Against Heresies, 1:10:1-4 (ca. 189 AD):For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in . . . the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue shall confess him, and that he may make just judgment of them all.Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. 5: Some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the prearranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption. They thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens. Those persons, therefore, who reject a resurrection affecting the whole man, and do their best to remove it from the Christian scheme, know nothing as to the plan of resurrection. For they do not choose to understand that, if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in Whom they profess to believe, did not rise again on the third day, but immediately upon his expiring departed on high, leaving His body in the earth. But the facts are that for three days, the Lord dwelt in the place where the dead were, as Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale’s belly . . . David says, when prophesying of Him: `Thou hast delivered my soul from the nethermost hell (grave).’ And on rising the third day, He said to Mary, `Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father’ . . . . How then must not these men be put to confusion, who allege . . . that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord ‘went away in the midst of the shadow of death,’ where the souls of the dead were, and afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up into heaven, it is obvious that the souls of His disciples also . . . shall go away into the invisible place . . . and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event. Then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, bodily, just as the Lord rose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. As our Master did not at once take flight to heaven, but awaited the time of His resurrection . . . , so we ought also to await the time of our resurrection.II Clement (ca. AD 150):Let none of you say that this flesh is not judged and does not rise again. Just think: In what state were you saved, and in what state did you recover your [spiritual] sight, if not in the flesh? In the same manner, as you were called in the flesh, so you shall come in the flesh. If Christ, the Lord who saved us, though he was originally spirit, became flesh and in this state called us, so also shall we receive our reward in the flesh. Let us, therefore, love one another, so that we may all come into the kingdom of God. Tatian the Syrian, Address to the Greeks, 155 (ca. 170 AD): We believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consummation of all things.Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165 AD), Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 80 (ca. 150 AD):They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . . . For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us? Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80:For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the Truth of the resurrection and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven: do not imagine that they are Christians; just as one, if he would rightly consider it would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of the Genistae, Meristae, Galilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews, but are only called Jews, worshipping God with the lips, as God declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.Justin Martyr, The Resurrection 8 (ca. 153 AD):Indeed, God calls even the body to resurrection and promises it everlasting life. When he promises to save the man, he thereby makes his promise to the flesh. What is man but a rational living being composed of soul and body? Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man. Can the body be called a man? No, it can but be called the body of a man. If, then, neither of these is by itself a man, but that which is composed of the two together is called a man, and if God has called man to life and resurrection, he has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body.Theophilus of Antioch (d. ca. 183-185 AD), To Autolycus, 1.7-8 (ca. 181 AD):God will raise up your flesh immortal with your soul; and then, having become immortal, you shall see the immortal, if you will believe in him now; and then you will realize that you have spoken against him unjustly. But you do not believe that the dead will be raised. When it happens, then you will believe, whether you want to or not; but unless you believe now, your faith then will be reckoned as unbelief.Tertullian of Carthage, The Resurrection of the Dead, 63.1 (ca. 210 AD):Therefore, the flesh shall rise again: certainly of every man, certainly the same flesh, and certainly in its entirety. Wherever it is, in the safekeeping with God through that most faithful agent between God and man, Jesus Christ, who shall reconcile both God to man and man to God, [and] the spirit to the flesh and the flesh to the spirit Tertullian, Against Marcion, 5:9:3-4 (ca. 210 AD):In regard to that which is called the resurrection of the dead, it is necessary to defend the proper meaning of the terms `of the dead’ and `resurrection.’ The word `dead’ signifies merely that something has lost the soul, by the faculty of which it formerly lived. The term `dead’ then applies to a body. Moreover, if resurrection is of the dead, and `dead’ applies only to a body, the resurrection will be of a body. . . . `To rise’ may be said of that which never in any way fell, but which was always lying down. But `to rise again’ can only be said of that which has fallen; for by `rising again’ that which fell is said to `re-surrect.’ The syllable `re-‘ always implies iteration [happening again]. We say, therefore, that a body falls to the ground in death . . . and that which falls, rises again.Hippolytus (ca 170-236 AD), Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe, 1, 2:But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained…. The righteous will obtain the incorruptible and unfading Kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. . . . Thus far, then, on the subject of Hades, in which the souls of all are detained until the time God has determined; and then He will accomplish a resurrection of all, not by transferring souls into other bodies, but by raising the bodies themselves.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:41 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 1, 2009 3:43 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee, re urban legand theory.

Yes think l can see what your saying here but then this could be viewed as logical thinking only? And we contain so much more possibilities than that.. do we not? Our hopes, dreams and joys are confirmed within our own heart and our whole being. You just know kind of experiences when things become crystal clear to us and events take on true personal meanings. Surely this could also be the combination of body,mind and spirit at work and how God can work within each of us differently. i.e see previous Budda quote. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 3:58 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 6, 2009 8:58 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
So, soul could be Psych, Psychikos, Pneumatikos.

To those who are interested, this is comparable to Prana, but may not be exact. Breath is one type of Prana. I was wondering what would be the appropriate GK word for Sanskrit Atman. So far Atman has been getting wrongly translated as soul. May be there is no equivalent GK/EN word (like there is none for Dharma, Karma, Yoga, Kundalini etc)

Regarding the sin – redemption idea:

If the Abrahamic god knows the future (revelation), he should have known how Lucifer would act/react, how Adam/Eve would behave. So, is it fair to create creatures who you know will not obey you, and then punish them and also their progeny? And later violate his own rules and enter the world in the form of a human…

Can I see some answers (from scripture) for my previous questions?

>>I said

>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}

>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}

>>>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily

>>resurrected believers when {B} happens?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 4:08 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: The Early Church Fathers Taught Bodily Resurrection, Not Reincarnation:…

IFF: Ascension is the most desirable outcome, but not the most common one. Most people do not attain true liberation or salvation in their present life, and so must reincarnate. At the time of Christ, when his teachings (including his secret or esoteric teachings) were available and their potency still present, there were many who attained true salvation and ascension. Unfortunately, that is not the case today among the majority of Christians. The claims of Jesus’ ascension into heaven are themselves merely symbolic statements that veil the esoteric secrets of bodily worship of the internally ascending Life-Current. If we understand that Jesus was simply the honored symbol for the living Divine Spirit (or Life-Principle) and the way whereby every individual may worship or commune with that Spirit in truth (and so become a Son of God), then we can understand how the symbolic descriptions of his ascension to heaven developed. (To believe that Jesus somehow bodily rose into the clouds and out into the starry heavens is to propose a naive cosmology, like believing that the Last Supper, or the holy and symbolic feast of the body and blood, was actually a cannibalistic orgy.)

The idea of Jesus’ ascension is an symbolic expression of the esoteric mystical experience of the ascension of the Spirit (or Life-Current) from the lower body to the higher brain centers, whereby various kinds of mystical illumination and bliss are experienced. Thus, Jesus’ fate is identified with mystical ascension of attention to the bodily or internal and mental place of God above, and that same fate was mystically reproduced in the experience of all initiates within the inner circle of Jesus (and, presumably, within the inner circle of at least some of the disciples or apostles).The method of entering into communion with the Spirit of God in the company of Jesus was to receive the second baptism (the baptism of fire, or second birth via the Holy Spirit). That baptism, along with certain esoteric instructions, made it possible for the individual to worship in Spirit, through surrender of body, emotion, and mind into the internal Life-Current. After the first baptism, or water baptism (the ritual of purification), a period of personal and moral testing followed. The convert who kept the faith and showed it in the form of personal and moral disciplines was eventually given the initiatory touch (baptism or anointing) of the Master (or one of the empowered disciples), usually during a secret meeting within the inner circle of initiates and disciples.

This same procedure may be observed today in esoteric communities all over the world. (I know because I have participated in some of these communities.) Typically, a spiritual teacher initiates others into Spirit-Baptism, which produce psycho-physical changes that awaken the Life-Current or kundalini. This may also be done through meditation.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 10:14 PM PDT

Allan says:
As you say, Lee, Jesus MUST be understood within the framework of first-century, 2nd Temple Judaism…

My interest is in mythology as defined by Robert Graves and Joseph Campbell. When I start to talk mythology with the parson/priest there is a recognition that there is a great deal more to the development of Christianity than is ordinarily accepted. Exploring that great deal is beyond the pew-warmer, so the authorities avoid this whenever possible.

As you know I live in Australia, home of the oldest, longest-lasting human culture on the planet. It is a bit of a joke to me when people talk about the longevity of the RCC, when our Aborigines have been here for a minimum of 45,000 (some say up to 70,000) years.

We, whether as Neanderthal or Homo sapiens, first became aware of our mortality hundreds of thousands of years ago, and the debate still rages on.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 10:19 PM PDT

Allan says:
Lee: So far, no one has been able to come up with any evidence that this did, in fact, happen.

Allan: I do not accept your dating of Gnostic teaching, but the very fact that these writing were banned is enough evidence for me that the canonical writings were selected for deliberate and specific reasons. Why do you think so much of the old knowledge was deliberately destroyed?

Lee: Judaism taught that the physical world was a good place, though a good place made bad via Adam’s sin.

Allan: I doubt this interpretation very much. May I invite you to check it with an observant Jew?



Posted on
July 1, 2009 10:25 PM PDT

Allan says:
LS: …they mean whatever the reader thinks they mean. I think this is a wonderful statement and shows the spiritual mystery that is life…

Allan: You’ve got it in one.

The real search, the real knowledge, can only come from within. The institutions are there principally to protect the power structure of the men who build and run them.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 10:29 PM PDT

Allan says:
I reckon these blokes had too much time on their hands.

Does any of this really matter?

For me, I’m afraid, it is nothing more than quality mental pilates.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 10:31 PM PDT

Allan says:
DogmaToxin: So, is it fair to create creatures who you know will not obey you, and then punish them and also their progeny? And later violate his own rules and enter the world in the form a human…

Allan: I am keen to see how far you get with this one. Doubt very much the challenge will be accepted in any meaningful way.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 1, 2009 10:34 PM PDT

Allan says:
We desperately need more of this sort of thinking, IFF.

Pity so much of the mystery religions remains just that, a mystery.

Reckon we need to start again from the beginning. As I said above, the theologians had far too much time on their hands, just like the rabbis.



Posted on
July 1, 2009 10:57 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:08 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 2:48 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya DogmaToxin,

Regarding sin-redemption theories. Can’t supply scripture quotes again sorry! How l make sense of these issues is – that God knows us better than we do. One of the many different effects of Lucifer is doubt you could say. If he has the vast ability to work through our thoughts and emotions especially. All negative thoughts and behaviours could be viewed as being influeneced by the Lucifer effect working through us, dastardly clever! (This comes from Steiner 5th Gospel info.) A learning spiritual process after all… and could then be said that everything is preordained or working out as it should be. The personal affects can be seen to vary greatly from person to person. God knows this too. Time is required for personal development and understanding and changes in behaviour ie. recognising that God’s postive effects in us versus the negative affects of Luciferic influences, all at work in us at the same time because of the very fact that we are human! Very confusing and distracting us from our own personal spirituality viewpoint. Plus we must be willing to look! What we can all individualy give to the world which produces positivite affects around us – is perhaps by understanding our own unique gifts we could offer? God knows everything and is part of an on-going eternal process towards spirituality.. and it’s affect on our sometimes very negative world. This is why reincarnation to me makes sense. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 3:00 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 3:04 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee, Lots of info there about ressurection v reincarnation. There is a woman who says we will eventually not require the death process at all. Got an e-mail through the other day about her lastest book. Sorry can’t remember her name, would have to take another look at it. Not too sure how l feel about this yet. Suppose will have to look at her information but not too happy with her philosophy because it is different to my own beliefs l guess..which l have been very happy with for a long time and trying to develop further within my own life. But then everyone elses beliefs are also right for them… but need developing as is the way of the world. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 3:33 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Allan,

From what l’ve read and believe, Jesus does have a very special connection with humans because of the fallen angels aspect etc. His role and life + death were apparently to add a new dimension to our human soul. Steiner if l can do a quick summary (and miss out lots of important details no doubt!) says that Jesus’s life,death and ressurection were to allow Jesus to experience the fallen angels influence on us or to share our own bodily experiences and doubts on Earth. His then sacrifice + ressurection allowed the progression on from group soul development into individual soul development. This then allows for an eternal miriad of varieties and methods becoming available for us to connect to with our own spirituality when we are here. And in a manner which is always available to us. But then this works perfectly in with my belief in reincarnation and why it is a necessary process… as Jesus can be viewed as a catalyst in this whole process. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 7:11 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>All negative thoughts and behaviours

Some come from what I call the Dark Voice (as did someone else I encountered), from what I understand it’s our collective subconscious and tries to make us feel either inadequate, or to just make us fail or give up in general. I’d say most people who think they live in a ‘ghetto’ listen to this voice way too much.

And than of course there are negative energy beings that live off of negative emotions (and have the ability to enhance them).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 8:27 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:08 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 8:31 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Bodily resurrection is the only resurrection known to the Bible. Resurrection can’t be spiritual. Here’s why:

a) Spiritual resurrection (actually resurrection always refers to the body but I’ll use the word with reservations), was a Greco-Roman concept, popularized by Platonism. No self-respecting Greek expected to, or wanted, to be bodily resurrected.Strong’s defines resurrection, anastasis, G386, AS:1) a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)2) a rising from the deada) that of Christb) that of all men at the end of this present agec) the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (Heb. 11:35)

Here’s classical historian and NT scholar NT Wright on the Greek concept of the soul from his The Resurrection of the Son of God, p. 49.:

For Plato the soul is the non-material aspect of a human being, and is the aspect that really matters. Bodily life is full of delusion and danger; the soul is to be cultivated in the present both for its own sake and because its future happiness will depend upon such cultivation. The soul, being immortal, existed after the body, and will continue to exist after the body is gone. . . .Because the soul is this sort of thing, it not only survives the death of the body but is delighted to do so. If it had known earlier where its real interests lay it would have been longing for this very moment. It will now flourish in a new way, released from the prison that had hitherto enslaved it.

b) However most ancient Jews by the time of Christ believed in physical, bodily, resurrection. My friend, Bobby Valentine, is a scholar of the Old Testament. He says:

The Hebrews know nothing of this dichotomy of spirit and body that moderns influenced by Plato subscribe to. The word soul used in the Hebrew Bible (nephesh) as in my soul thirsts for you O God … (Ps 42.2) does not refer to some inner part of the person but is rather a way of referring to oneself … why are you so downcast Bobby Valentine. The psalmist is longing for God, not just an immaterial unseen part of him. And indeed, the Hebrew word nephesh, H5315, is defined by Strong’s as:

1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b) living being

c) living being (with life in the blood)

d) the man himself, self, person or individual

e) seat of the appetites

f) seat of emotions and passions

g) activity of mind

1) dubious

h) activity of the will

1) dubious

i) activity of the character

1) dubious

So that when the OT uses soul it means person.

As I said, by the time of Christ, nearly all Jews (except the Sadducees, possibly as much for political reasons as theological, and possibly the Essenes, though this is not certain), believed in bodily resurrection. One of the main texts was:

Daniel 12:2, which says:Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This belief in physical resurrection got stronger and was articulated much clearer in later Jewish texts. For example, here’s 2 Maccabees 7:9-11, recounting the martyrdom of some Jews:At the point of death he said: You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying. After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: It was from Heaven that I received these; for the sake of his laws I disdain them; from him I hope to receive them again. Now 2 Maccabees 12:42-45:(A)nd they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the RESURRECTION. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would RISE AGAIN, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. Now here’s Josephus on bodily resurrection:. . People who depart from this life in accordance with nature’s law, thus repaying what God has lent them, when the giver wants to claim it back again, win everlasting fame. Their houses and families are secure. Their souls remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come around again, they come back again to live instead in holy bodies. Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-100 AD), Wars of the Jews (ca. 79 AD), 3.374fEvery person, trusting in the evidence of their own conscience, on the basis of the lawgiver’s prophecies and the strong faithfulness of God, is persuaded that if they observe the laws and, if necessary, are prepared to die for them, God has given them a renewed existence and to receive a new life out of the renewal. – Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-100 AD), Against Apion, 2.217f, ca. 93 AD

Now here’s the Pharasiac Mishnah, Sanhedrin X.1:All Israelites have a share in the world to come. . . . And these are they that have no share in the world to come: he that says there is no resurrection of the dead prescribed in the Law, and [he that says] that the Law is not from Heaven, and an Epicurean. For Jews resurrection always meant bodily, physical.

Here’s Jesus in Matthew 16:21:From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

The word translated raised up, is the GK word egeira, G1453, which Strong’s defines as:

1) to arouse, cause to rise

a) to arouse from sleep, to awake

b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life

c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.

d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear

1) to cause to appear, bring before the public

2) to raise up, stir up, against one

3) to raise up i.e. cause to be born

4) of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect

Thus Jesus predicted his own BODILY resurrection. Paul was an orthodox (probably Shammaite) Pharisee before his conversion to Christ. Christ had a bodily resurrection, as one would expect of the JEWISH Messiah, since, as we said, most Jews believed in a physical resurrection. Thus for Paul, Jesus’ resurrection was also bodily. Paul makes this very clear to anyone who cares enough to study the words he uses in I Corinthians 15.

Gary Habermas and Matthew Licona comment upon I Corinthians 15 in their The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, p. 164.:Many critics appeal to 1 Corinthians 15:44-50 in order to support their view that Paul, the earliest author we know to have written about Jesus’ resurrection, says he was raised as a ‘spirit’ rather than with a ‘physical body.’ To support this view, these scholars point to Paul’s contrast of a resurrection body with our current mortal one by sing the terms ‘spiritual’ and ‘natural.’ Some translations, like the ‘New Revised Standard Version,’ use ‘spiritual’ and ‘physical.’ If this is correct, Paul is saying that the earthly body is material while the resurrection body is spiritual or immaterial. A more careful look at the two Greek words Paul uses reveals that this interpretation is incorrect. Outside this passage in I Corinthians, Paul uses the word translated spiritual (pneumatikos) in the sense of the spiritually mature of this world (2:15; 3;1; 14:37; cf. Galatians 6:1), or of something that has to do with, or has as its origin, the Holy Spirit (2:13-14; 9:11; 10:3-4; 12:1; 14:1). ‘With the possible exception of Ephesians 6:12, the term is never used in the Pauline letters either to refer to or to describe a being as immaterial.’

And NT Wright says:Several popular translations, notably the ‘Revised Standard Version’ and its offshoots, translate Paul’s key phrases as ‘a physical body’ and ‘a spiritual body.’ Simply in terms of the Greek words Paul uses, this cannot be correct. . . . The contrast is between the present body, corruptible, decaying, and doomed to die, and the future body, incorruptible, undecaying, never to die again. The key adjectives, which are quoted endlessly in discussions of the topic, do not refer to a physical body and a non-physical one, which is how people in our culture are bound to hear the words physical and spiritual. The first word, ‘psychikos,’ does not in any case mean anything like physical in our sense. For Greek speakers of Paul’s day, the ‘psyche,’ from which the word derives, means the soul, not the body.

But the deeper, underlying point is that adjectives of this type, Greek adjectives ending in -ikos, describe not the material out of which things are made but the power or energy that animates them. It is the difference between asking, on the one hand, Is this a wooden or an iron ship? (the material from which it is made) and asking, on the other, Is this a steamship or a sailing ship? Paul is talking about the present body, which is animated by the normal human psyche (the life-force we all possess here and now, which gets us through the present life but is ultimately powerless against illness, injury, decay and death), and the future body, which is animated by God’s ‘pneuma,’ God’s breath of new life, the energizing power of God’s new creation. Furthermore, as I keep pointing out, Romans 8, 11 and 23 clearly indicate that our BODIES will be redeemed. Strong’s defines redemption, apolytrosis, G629 as:

1) a releasing effected by payment of ransom

a) redemption, deliverance

b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

Jesus’ sacrifice was/is the RANSOM, the LIBERATION, the DELIVERANCE, that gives our MORTAL BODIES RESURRECTION.

Thus, you can plainly see the contiuum of belief in bodily resurrection from ancient 2nd Temple Judaism, to Yeshua (Jesus), to Paul, to Clement, to II Clement, to Polypcarp, Justin, to Tertullian, to Augustine.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 8:32 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF, how do you know the ascension was merely symbolic? It is written as though the gospel authors actually witnessed it. Nor, importantly, do they claim that Jesus ascended as a spirit-indeed, Jesus ascended as a human.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 8:51 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ALLAN: I doubt this interpretation very much. May I invite you to check it with an observant Jew?

LEE: I’m not so much interested in what MODERN Jews believe, as about what ANCIENT, 2nd TEMPLE Jews believed; because there is a difference. Most branches of modern Judaism are based upon rabbinic Judaism, rather than the Temple Judaism of the BBible with its sacrifices. Ancient 2nd Temple Judaism taught that YHWH had created a good world which was corrupted through sin. But one day YHWH would fix that broken world-through national Israel, whom he saved via the Exodus, then gave them Torah. Most Jews in Jesus’ day held the Pharisaic view that expected a physical, bodily resurrection. The Sadducees-the party from which most of the Temple priests and a majority of the Sanhedrin came, on the other hand, disavowed bodily resurrection, possibly more for political reasons (they advocated appeasement and cooperation with Rome as a survival strategy rather than opposition or ritual separation as other Jews did), than theological ones.

Christianity taught that Israel, being comprised of fallen, sinful people, was unable to fulfill its role, thus YHWH appointed Jesus to stand in for Israel. Thus Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection achieved what national Israel was unable to do.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 9:17 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 9:23 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: But then everyone elses beliefs are also right for them… but need developing as is the way of the world. LS

LEE: This is the problem Christianity has with many modern belief systems. Christianity (as does Orthodox Judaism) teaches that Truth is Objective, not subjective or relative. Universal Truth exists and is identical for every human being. Just as 4 + 4 can’t equal 98, just as a coffee table cannot also be the planet Mars, so reincarnation can’t be true for some but not for others. Either one faith, one spiritual reality, is true for everybody, or none is-they can’t all be true. Reality isn’t subjective. Mars objectively exists as Mars. It can’t be both the planet Mars and a coffee table at the same time. I might think Mars is really a coffee table, but that in itself cannot alter the reality that the planet Mars is not, in fact, a coffee table. In other words, my perception of reality might be faulty, might not accurately reflect reality. Christianity teaches that there is only one spiritual reality, whether people know it or not or like it or not.

In Christianity, Jesus was/is YHWH the creator God in human form (technically YHWH’s divine Reason in human form), who came to earth to show us the way to the Father, namely through his sacrificial death and resurrection. Jesus was the embodiment of the ancient Hebrew sacrifices offered by the high priests for sin. Because of sin, redemption and forgiveness was only possiblke through the shedding of blood. But the blood of bulls and goats could never get the job done. Enter Jesus as the perfect sacrifice. His sacrifice gives us, not only spiritual life, but physical life as well, as the two are inseparably connected. Jesus’ death and resurrection rescued the world from the negative effects of sin and death brought about by our separation from YHWH the Creator. Jesus is clear-as are the other NT authors, that Jesus is the only way; if any other means was possible, he died in vain.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 9:21 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

They witnessed his subtle or spiritual body ascend, which no doubt looked very much like his physical body. This must be the case because we do not remain in the physical plane after this life ends. The higher planes or heaven worlds which we go to when we leave this life are non-physical (i.e., astral, mental, causal). This physical world is just a temporary school.



Posted on
July 2, 2009 9:25 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 9:25 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
Lee said:Truth is Objective, not subjective or relative. Universal Truth exists and is identical for every human being. Just as 4 + 4 can’t equal 98, just as a coffee table cannot also be the planet Mars, so reincarnation can’t be true for some but not for others. Either one faith, one spiritual reality, is true for everybody, or none is-they can’t all be true. Reality isn’t subjective. Mars objectively exists as Mars. It can’t be both the planet Mars and a coffee table at the same time. I might think Mars is really a coffee table, but that in itself cannot alter the reality that the planet Mars is not, in fact, a coffee table. In other words, my perception of reality might be faulty, might not accurately reflect reality. Christianity teaches that there is only one spiritual reality, whether people know it or not or like it or not.

Lee is exactly right.

What we have here with Laura and IFF is every man does what is right in his OWN eyes.

As we can see by the state of the world today, and in our own individual lives, this does NOT work. :)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 9:27 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

Collective subconcious!

You be on to something now! Key collective

take it a step further as to what? who? purpose?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 9:38 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 10:15 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee,They witnessed his subtle or spiritual body ascend, which no doubt looked very much like his physical body. This must be the case because we do not remain in the physical plane after this life ends. The higher planes or heaven worlds which we go to when we leave this life are non-physical (i.e., astral, mental, causal). This physical world is just a temporary school.

LEE: How do you know what happens to people after they die? You can’t prove that these astral planes or heaven worlds exist.

And again, being the Jewish Messiah, Jesus taught bodily resurrection. His ascension was physical. People don’t go to heaven when they die-that’s not a Jewish or Christian concpet. It’s a Greek Platonic one, rejected by ancient Jews (Philo being a possible exception) and Christians. Christianity, being as it believes the fulfillment of Judaism, always talks about physical embodiment. Christianity is simply incompatible with that aspect of Platonism. That’s the main reason the Church Fathers rejected the Gnostic teachings. a) They were elitist, only open to certain people b) They were subjective and experiential c) they denied the goodness of physical creation, instead teaching a radicalized Platonic idea that said creation was a prison to be escaped. Thus the church fathers rejected Gnosticism, not out some grab for power, but because they honestly thought it was a dangerous false teaching.

As Prof. Philip Jenkins of Penn State says regarding the Gnostic gospels:

The discovery of the non-canonical gospels marks a change of perception and ideology, rather than a balanced or

objective response to a new corpus of evidence. As the cynical

saying declares, If I hadn’t believed it, I wouldn’t have seen it

with my own eyes. Imagine if people attempted to apply such relativism to medicine. Suppose my doctor diagnoses my illness and tells me I need a specific type of heart medication or I will die, but I insist that I want to take liver pills instead, because All medicines lead to good health. It really doesn’t matter ‘which’ medicine you take. So, despite the doctor’s warnings that I can only be saved by taking the heart medicine, I take the liver medicine, expecting to be cured, and I die. Is it the doctor’s fault for being dogmatic and intolerant, insisting that there’s one and only one, type of medicine than can save me? Was he being exclusivist and intolerant of other medicines? Of course not. He knows what type of medicine will cure me and warned me to take it. If I don’t, it’s my fault. That’s what Christianity teaches-that our illness is caused by sin and death; and that there’s only one medicine that will cure that illness-Christ’s death, burial and resurrection Thus you can’t mix-and-match spiritual paths, less still create your own, in a kind of do-it-yourself, any more than a heart patient can mix and match medicines.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 9:48 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:08 PM PDT]




In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 9:59 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA

Just read your post to Alan the Aussie!

You are quoting someone ummm

STEINER??

I havent read his book I dont read other peoples work so as not to conflict with mine, or not to influence my teachings from my teachers (spiritual) from above…However in reading you post I guess these are Steiners words? allowed the progression on from Group Soul developementinto individual Soul developement Wow this guy is Very Very Close to the TRUTH, I am impressed!

Let me express what Steiner has not defined or made clear. ISRAEL was/is A collective SOUL (group soul) if you wantall the members of the collective Laying UP for other members for the Good of the Collective !Jesus brought Division individual Souls All Fragmented from one Divine Conciousness each laying Up’ for itselfyet storing their Treasures in one main Wharehouse rather than individual houses…. as Israel didI am aware that my explanation might be somewhat vague, mabey veiled a bit The whole clear truth about souls, and conciousnesArchangels, Angels,Reincarnation cannot be truthfully told in a small post, it needs to be in BOOK FORM This gentleman Steiner ,to even be able to mention or Grasp the ‘Group SOUL’ /Individual Soul Concept and relate it to JESUSshows the Author has a HIGH Level of Spiritual Awarness and SOUL Conciousness ..It is a shame I cannot read his book!But very soon, a book will be comming that should answer a lot of our questions….thanks for posting that information about this book and Good fro you to Grasp that part and to post it here hmmm!!

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:09 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HoweverI think I liked U CAN better, BUT Cayce is pretty right on about Souls from Heaven first descended to the Earth planeto begin incarnating as HumansWell inhumans anyways!Does Cayce say that steering the process creating more appropriate forms for these souls??Great! No not really, guess I will be getting accused of pirating Caseys words when I address this quite a bit in my book, good to see Casey agrees with me though..Havent read the book but which of Caseys books are you quoting from ??



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:12 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>LEE: How do you know what happens to people after they die? You can’t prove that these astral planes or heaven worlds exist.

Not that gets really dumb……….sorta like asking for proof of god or heaven, there isn’t any, except for those that have experienced them.

>And again, being the Jewish Messiah, Jesus taught bodily resurrection.

Actually like most things your tunnel vision sort of skipped over my posts pointing out that Jesus did not match the requirements of the Jewish Messiah of the time (in fact the requirements come closer to what might happen in his second coming).

>a) They were elitist, only open to certain people b) They were subjective and experiential c) they denied the goodness of physical creation, instead

>teaching a radicalized Platonic idea that said creation was a prison to be escaped. Thus the church fathers rejected Gnosticism, not out some grab for

>power, but because they honestly thought it was a dangerous false teaching.

And so lost what Jesus taught……Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. – Jesus Matthew 7:13-16 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Isiah `Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it (Matthew 13:10-17).

>less still create your own, in a kind of do-it-yourself, any more than a heart patient can mix and match medicines.

Yes you can with some help, for instance the Kwisatz Hadderach teaches how to find ways.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:14 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I don’t know for sure, except it’s something best to ‘turn off’.

However, it can be a way to teach you to keep on trying despite all it does to make you quit.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:25 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Reality isn’t subjective.

Theory of relativity – reality is subjective……



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:29 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Steiner’s Knowledge of the Higher Worlds is worth a read.

I’m not into the group soul thing per se, as it seems to be used here.

I do however with a group of souls and we are closely connected, but we’re still individual souls, each with our own paths and viewpoints on things.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:30 AM PDT

Christine D. Angel says:
ALF…You agree with Edgar Cayce who was a mere human with outlandish, soulish ideas which directly contradict the wisdom of Gods Word, and think that we don’t see that as a tad ODD?

Cayce is NOT right about anything. He is out there with the occult and crazy folk.

Come on Alf…you can do better than THIS. Oy vey



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 10:56 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 10:59 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: How do you know what happens to people after they die? You can’t prove that these astral planes or heaven worlds exist.

IFF: I read more than just books on conventional Christianity. Also, I know from my own direct experience that the subtle or astral body exists. There are many references to the spiritual body in the Bible, such as The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light (Matt 6:22) which refers to the ajna chakra or third eye below the forehead. This is the location on the forehead where the ash is placed on Ash Wednesday and the where the bindi is placed by Hindus. Opening of this energy center in the body is accompanied by visions of inner light. For a good introduction to the subtle bodies and planes, see: Man, Visible and Invisible by C. W. Leadbeater, The Astral Body and other Astral Phenomena by Arthur E. Powell, The Rosicrucian Mysteries by Max Heindel, Yoga: Immortality and Freedom by Mircea Eliade, The Second Coming of Christ: The Resurrection of the Christ Within You by Paramahansa Yogananda, etc. As to the nature of the afterlife, there are many sources, including the books I just mentioned (along with traditional texts such as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and modern texts, such as Easy Death by Adi Da Samraj), records of near-death experiences (see: http://www.near-death.com/ ), the reports of genuine psychics and mediums, and the accounts given in the various religious and spiritual traditions. None of this needs to be seen as contradicting the Bible, when it is understood correctly.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:00 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:02 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:05 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:08 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:09 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 11:15 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEEYou said when the NT says Soul it means Person….Once again your Scholarly Intellect gets in the way of any Spiritual conciousness you might have

>>The Souls of ISRAEL Incarnate in the bodies of the Hebrews were NEPHESH HAYA or Living SOULS

so actually YES as Refferring to ISRAEL the SOUL and the MAN were one and the SAMEEZEK 18,4 For every LIVING SOUL belongs to ME! Another example Isiah51;1 Look to the ROCK from which You were cut, The quarry from which You were Hewn,This does not reffer to the Flesh and also indicates the difference Between Israel and the Nations.

The Hebrews bore the full Conciousness of the Heavenly ,Incarnate but this goes directly tothe Psalm and what JESUS says to/about them I said YOU were GODS………But of Course You will rationalize the Spiritual TRUTH of this down to something like HMMM?

Jesus must have meant Godlike, No he said GODS aka more than one, ISRAEL a collective conciousness (the GOD of ISRAEL)Manifested as Individual GODS through the bodies of the HEBREWS, all Laying up GLORY to the one CREATOR GOD!

well they were supposed to anyhow!

The Hebrews carried the Full Conciousness within their bodies, This is why they are DIRECT SONS

The Gentiles or Everybody Else would carry the fragmented SOUL(conciousness) of JESUS this is why they are ADOPTED sons through JESUS.. All SOULS REINCARNATE it is in most cases BY CHOICE,Reincarnation Fullfills GODS PURPOSE as well as yours

>The body that will be REDEEMED LEE is the SOUL BODY or Astral Body , LITE BODY yaada yaada

LEE you yet dont understand that YOU ARE AN IMMORTAL SOUL!!!YOU ARE NOT THE FLESH that YOU LIVE IN!!It is only a VEHICLE used by GOD to GLORIFY HIMSELF and the real YOU!!

BTW LEE ROM8;11 Has nothing to do with A PHYSCIAL RESSURECTION !!!!!Paul is explaining and proves that the BODY without the SPIRIT is DEAD!!!!! HIS SPIRIT brings to LIFE your DEAD BODY

the MORTAL BODY is not YOU! READ the verse Carefully with the SPIRIT

May GOD please GRANT YOU UNDERSTANDING

Peace Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:21 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HOVER

I didnt miss that I dont agree wholly!

But this goes to Caseys point of JESUS and Adam as one and SAME

Also there was Flesh which was Incarnate way before Our Adam…You know this!

Ahh you caught that ! Crowley! YOUR GOOD,, But wrong I didnt refference Crowley as enlightened,I just said that he also agreed with Casey as JESUS was ADAM…I assure you my Spiritual Senseibilities come from a very Sensible Realm!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:26 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 11:36 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
CHRISTINE

Well a popst from my favorite poster! Thanks I see you have been paying attention!

Cayce is Spiritually correct about certain things, I was refferring to HOVERS post

Oy VEY is that GREEK??? Remember it is OY VEY not OY WEY there is no V in Hebrew and there is no YAHWEH!!!

Christine cant wait to go over to your Heaven and Earth thread I see you are listening! Good

The KEY to the PLAN is still in the Our Father I see at least you got the HEAVEN AND EARTH PART

Those are the key words in GODS overall Plan from the beginning!!!

Youre getting better!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:34 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

Now as you know most of the SOULS on the Planet are INDIVIDUAL SOULS, as you are!

But those that one might consider Old Souls that are of ISRAEL which are all Fragmented from ONETHROUGH TWELVE through 144,000 still incarnate and REincarnate as individual SOULS yet store their WORKS, Treasures, FRUIT in Themselves and their Children, they also REINCARNATE

Different ,as all ISRAEL reincarnates through their FIRSTBORNE!

Most Angels reincarnate this way as they are fragmented from an ARCHANGEL who would basically

be the greater or collective conciousness that all the individual Souls/Angels are cut from!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:46 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:48 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Can’t speak to that…except I qualify as an ancient soul……..(i.e. older than old).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:49 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 11:57 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: LEE: How do you know what happens to people after they die? You can’t prove that these astral planes or heaven worlds exist.IFF: I read more than just books on conventional Christianity. Also, I know from my own direct experience that the subtle or astral body exists. There are many references to the spiritual body in the Bible, such as The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light (Matt 6:22) which refers to the ajna chakra or third eye below the forehead. This is the location on the forehead where the ash is placed on Ash Wednesday and the where the bindi is placed by Hindus. Opening of this energy center in the body is accompanied by visions of inner light.

LEE: IFF, you are interpreting Jesus’ words through your Eastern biases. Matthew 6:22 must be read in the context of the whole chapter-you can’t just rip one verse out of its context and then build a whole theology on that one verse. Plus it helps to read a more modern translation, like the NIV, which renders the text as:The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Eugene Petersen’s The Message paraphrase gets to the gist. Here’s the context of the passage:

Don’t hoard treasure down here where it gets eaten by moths and corroded by rust or-worse!-stolen by burglars. Stockpile treasure in heaven, where it’s safe from moth and rust and burglars. It’s obvious, isn’t it? The place where your treasure is, is the place you will most want to be, and end up being. Your eyes are windows into your body. If you open your eyes wide in wonder and belief, your body fills up with light. If you live squinty-eyed in greed and distrust, your body is a dank cellar. If you pull the blinds on your windows, what a dark life you will have! You can’t worship two gods at once. Loving one god, you’ll end up hating the other. Adoration of one feeds contempt for the other. You can’t worship God and Money both. Thus, properly translating and interpreting this passage helps to understand it, and that it isn’t saying anything about a spiritual body. The context is talking about not greedily storing up corruptible treasures, not being in love with money and stuff, but storing up wisdom and virtue. You hafta read the New Testament like Jesus and the (mostly Jewish) original Christians would have. You can’t import ideas and concepts into the text that the original authors/readers would’ve been ignorant of, and would not have approved of had they known about them. You can’t do this with the Bible any more than you could import small gasoline engine repair ideas into growing roses and expect to get healthy roses. Or any roses at all. The ideas and concepts simply don’t mix, they’re like oil and water. Neither do these Eastern ideas mix with with Christianity. They, too, are like oil and water, because they each paint a fundamentally different picture about God, human existence, and the nature of reality.

IFF: For a good introduction to the subtle bodies and planes, see: Man, Visible and Invisible by C. W. Leadbeater, The Astral Body and other Astral Phenomena by Arthur E. Powell, The Rosicrucian Mysteries by Max Heindel, Yoga: Immortality and Freedom by Mircea Eliade, The Second Coming of Christ: The Resurrection of the Christ Within You by Paramahansa Yogananda, etc. As to the nature of the afterlife, there are many sources, including the books I just mentioned (along with traditional texts such as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and modern texts, such as Easy Death by Adi Da Samraj), records of near-death experiences (see: http://www.near-death.com/ ), the reports of genuine psychics and mediums, and the accounts given in the various religious and spiritual traditions. None of this needs to be seen as contradicting the Bible, when it is understood correctly.

LEE: But it does contradict the Bible, which was written from a Jewish-Christian pov regarding reality, the body, death, and the afterlife. You just demonstrated above that you realy don’t understand what the text of Matthew 6 was/is saying. You’ve imported a concept not found there into the text in order to prove a preconceived point.

The Bible is plain that people used to be immortal, but because of sin we age, get sick and eventually die-ONCE. We don’t come back again and again. We die once, then, later, when Christ returns for the final time, if we’ve accepted Christ’s sacrifice, we’re bodily resurrected. As I keep saying, these Eastern doctrines of yours are simply incompatible with either ancient Judaism or Christianity.

Judaism and Christianity know nothing of chakras, or astral bodies, or past life recall, or Tantic Yoga or Zen, or astral planes; in Judaism and Christianity, there’s heaven, God’s dimension, and then’s there’s the physical space-time universe, our dimension.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:53 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 12:18 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 12:21 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Thus, properly translating and interpreting this passage helps to understand it, and that it isn’t saying anything about a spiritual body. The context is

>talking about not greedily storing up corruptible treasures, not being in love with money and stuff, but storing up wisdom and virtue.

Wisdom comes from owl as it so happens, which teaches how to open the third eye.

>The Bible is plain that people used to be immortal, but because of sin we age, get sick and eventually die-ONCE.

Your tunnel vision is at work again…….How come Adam didn’t die when he ate, or did God die. Or better yet, is the death representative of another meaning entirely.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 12:55 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFF in relation to your comment re ascension.

Plus – if Jesus was to share life with us in our human form and all this entails.. he would also have to share and experience physically dying would he not?? Otherwise his sacrifice could be viewed as being incomplete? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 1:16 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Christine, Re your comment of every man does what is right in his own eyes.

What about altering this to every man does what is right for him with God’s own eyes. Not physical eyes of course.

This is a process to be worked thriough and takes time. But this is also the way things are suppost to be. We cannot learn unless we make mistakes can we?

Re state of the world comment.

This period of time is sometimes mentioned as the Dark Ages in spiritual literature… because of our dependance and fixation with the material world and loss of spiritual awareness. This could be viewed as being part of the growth period and is required for spiritual growth to be nurtured in the future. There is plenty of literature stating that importance of 2012. If you read this information it can be another end of the world prediction or as the end of the world as we understand/experience it just now.

I of course believe the second version and can see it as a great chance for change in spiritual consciousness. Have no idea how this will occur but will probably be something we have not even thought about or expected. So not long to wait. LS.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 1:22 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 1:35 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Laura: Plus – if Jesus was to share life with us in our human form and all this entails.. he would also have to share and experience physically dying would he not?? Otherwise his sacrifice could be viewed as being incomplete? LS

IFF: Why do you think that we will remain in a physical form? Our bodies will die just like all physical bodies. You are not your body. You are spirit. When you die, you will have a spiritual body, and if Jesus appears to you, it will be in a spiritual body.

How did this strange, silly idea that we’re all going to live in physical bodies for all eternity arise???



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 1:33 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

My interpretation of the passage of Matthew is correct and true. You cannot see it because you approach your faith from an intellectual, rather than an experiential, perspective. I speak from what I have experienced, supporting it by the spiritual literature that I am familiar with. I have experienced spiritual baptism, ascension of the life energy within my body, opening of chakras or spiritual centers in my body, and the ecstatic receiving of, or communion with, the Holy Spirit. I experience the love and bodily bliss radiating from the spiritual heart, the sacred heart, within me everyday. In short, I know what I am talking about. I pray that you may come to see the depth within Christianity, and within yourself, that is presently hidden from you.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 1:34 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee,

My experience is that you can mix and match to your heart’s content.

Re doctor story, the importance of the physical world is that you cannot ignore it because this is where your being is presently placed. Intention is a very important aspect influencing our individual lives. There are current scientific researches going on to discover the strength of this intention effect. Changes to polluted water have been recorded through the participants intention to alter the chemical make-up of polluted water. Plenty of medical literature than can be accessed to see the results and a variety of other such experiments. Sorry l’m going of at a tangent yet again! LS




In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 1:46 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Some stuff on mind/body medicine:

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/mind-body/D239_BKG.pdf



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 1:50 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
hoverCruiser,

Yes and The Tao call the various influences you mave mentioned as,the oneness of all reality. The Tao or Great Integrity is the origin of the Universe. It is the way of life for all species on our planet. Tao means path. HOWEVER

The Tao that can be told

is not the universal Tao

The name that can be named

Is not the universal name.



Posted on
July 2, 2009 2:41 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 6, 2009 9:00 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Every time science proves something that completely contradicts the only-truly-totally-true holy books, the ‘scholars’ reeeinterpret to find that ‘oh yeah, it is there already, our understanding was wrong, but the scripture has been right all along’. This has happened for round earth, heliocentric, zero, infinity, vacuum etc…The verse below, from a Upanishad, is ‘the’ key to understanding Vedanta:(Veda = Knowledge; Anta = Fulfillment/Culmination/End. i.e. Final frontier of all knowledge.)

[om] purnam adah; purnam idam

purnat purnam udachyate

purnasya purnam adaya

purnam eva vashishyate

Trying to translate:

Infinite/Absolute/Perfect is ‘That'; Infinite/Absolute/Perfect is ‘This’

‘This’ (i/a/p) is formed out of ‘That’ (i/a/p)

Though ‘This’ formed out of ‘That’

‘That’ still is Infinite/Absolute/Perfect (Unchanged)

That = Supreme-Energy-Consciousness = Brahman = No Identity, No Attributes

This = Individualized-Energy-Conscious-Entity = Atman = Many Identities(ego)/Attributes

The sum total energy of the entire ‘system’ is constant; though immeasurable; while ‘change’ goes on. Matter is formed, exists temporarily, and gets annihilated. In a way, reducing all this down to scientifically explainable terms inadvertently makes us lose reverence (Teachers have always warned about this tendency).

So, energy ‘released’ by the ‘death’ of one entity can go on to become a new entity.

‘This’ exists in a cycle of birth-death until it ‘realizes’ its true nature as being ‘That’. ‘This’ can realize using any number of ‘paths/methods’. No restrictions. Humanity is at a point where we have a choice between ‘inclusive’ paths (find your own path – freedom from dogma) and ‘exclusive’ path (Abrahamic dogmas, you have to suppress your intellect and completely accept the writings of barbaric desert nomads which contradicts every branch of science).

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

yayA yayA bhavet puMsAM vyutpattiH pratyagAtmani |

sA saiva prakriyeha syAt sAdhvI sA chAnavasthitA ||

All the different means by which people can attain knowledge of the Self |

should be understood to be valid. These means are unlimited in number. ||

Also:

PragnyAnaM Brahma (Consciousness Is Brahman)

Aham BrahmAsmi (I am Brahman)

Tat Tvam Asi (That Thou Art)

Ayam Atma Brahma (This Atman Is Brahman)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 5:11 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 5:16 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 5:17 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
We’ve come to expect nothing less from Christine (or rather, nothing more).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 5:16 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 5:18 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 5:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 5:21 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Paul,

Jesus’ death was completely unnecessary and a terrible misfortune. It would have been much better for the world if Jesus had been allowed to live and carry on his teaching work. The notion that it was somehow a necessary event for the salvation of humanity is the BIG LIE of Christianity.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 5:27 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
I don’t know whether Christ was resurrected or not. Frankly, it doesn’t matter much to me, because it is his gospel of universal love and forgiveness that is of value to me.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 6:37 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 6:54 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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Posted on
July 2, 2009 7:00 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 7:04 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 7:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 2, 2009 7:22 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
oh my god alf,christine actually puts up with you as if she is going to change u to her way of thinking…?or something like that…[from one of her posts a bit down the way from the one i am responding to here…which puts me in mind of a bob dylan songfrom a time when he was more into jesusthan he seems to be nowbut geminis can be like that…Gonna Change My Way Of ThinkingGonna change my way of thinking,Make myself a different set of rules.Gonna change my way of thinking,Make myself a different set of rules.Gonna put my good foot forward,And stop being influenced by fools.So much oppression,Can’t keep track of it no more.So much oppression,Can’t keep track of it no more.Sons becoming husbands to their mothers,And old men turning young daughters into whores.Stripes on your shoulders,Stripes on your back and on your hands.Stripes on your shoulders,Stripes on your back and on your hands.Swords piercing your side,Blood and water flowing through the land.Well don’t know which one is worse,Doing your own thing or just being cool.Well don’t know which one is worse,Doing your own thing or just being cool.You remember only about the brass ring,You forget all about the golden rule.You can mislead a man,You can take ahold of his heart with your eyes.You can mislead a man,You can take ahold of his heart with your eyes.But there’s only one authority,And that’s the authority on high.I got a God-fearing woman,One I can easily afford.I got a God-fearing woman,One I can easily afford.She can do the Georgia crawl,She can walk in the spirit of the Lord.Jesus said, Be ready,For you know not the hour in which I come.Jesus said, Be ready,For you know not the hour in which I come.He said, He who is not for Me is against Me,Just so you know where He’s coming from.There’s a kingdom called Heaven,A place where there is no pain of birth.There’s a kingdom called Heaven,A place where there is no pain of birth.Well the Lord created it, mister,About the same time He made the earth.AND ANOTHER SONG COMES TO MIND..Too Much Of NothingNow, too much of nothingCan make a man feel ill at ease.One man’s temper might riseWhile another man’s temper might freeze.In the day of confessionWe cannot mock a soul.Oh, when there’s too much of nothing,No one has control.Say hello to ValerieSay hello to VivianSend them all my salaryOn the waters of oblivionToo much of nothingCan make a man abuse a king.He can walk the streets and boast like mostBut he wouldn’t know a thing.Now, it’s all been done before,It’s all been written in the book,But when there’s too much of nothing,Nobody should look.Say hello to ValerieSay hello to VivianSend them all my salaryOn the waters of oblivionToo much of nothingCan turn a man into a liar,It can cause one man to sleep on nailsAnd another man to eat fire.Ev’rybody’s doin’ somethin’,I heard it in a dream,But when there’s too much of nothing,It just makes a fella mean.Say hello to ValerieSay hello to VivianSend them all my salaryOn the waters of oblivion



In reply to an earlier post on
July 2, 2009 11:30 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hi Alfaara,Thanks for the your views about Steiner’s life work. His books are soooo full of details it is really impossible to describe at any length! He was a German philosopher with ‘contact’ and ‘channelling’ abilities with and from the spiritual world. I think however that his best information was that everything changes and becomes ‘out of date’ in our own spiritual development on Earth. What was once true alters by the continual multiple spiritual developments occuring here from us and from the angelic heirarchy.. and has been so throughout Time. This applies even to his work, he said.

How lucky you are to have spiritual teachers from above and to not have to rely on books for your teachings. These type of spiritual teachings or messages occur in a much lesser form for myself, but then l’m only a learner like everyone else. I know l only have part of the true answers but it is something l will continue to work towards as far as l can. Finding literature, people and experiences that l can personally relate to allows my thinking and beliefs to grow as they should l’m hoping!! Even people/authors who do not agree with my thinking… helps me to question my own personal reasoning and whys behind my current belief system, and is done so in the moment, and as opportunity allows. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:00 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan, re Higher Worlds book – is on my bookshelf in the extra special section.

The Group Soul part,think you have maybe misinterpreted what l said earlier or might have been my wording of it! Steiner saying that we were members of a collective Group Soul until Christ’s crucifixion occured. His sacrifice was to allow our group soul to develop into today’s individual soul entities, as part of humanity’s over-all spiritual development and growth. Also for the Earth itself and it’s own energies development. This has a direct conseqence effect onto our own physical, mental and spiritual development aswell …and can be viewed as presently an inseparable aspect of our whole being. LS

The Group Soul terminology also has another meaning, in that you are going to meet individuals in this life contaning the developing souls you have met before in another previous lifetime. A two way soul experience, they learn more from you and you from them type of senario. Specific lessons that we are struggling with you might say.

Then there are the spiritual teachers who are even more advanced spiritually…or further along the path than ourself. They again can come back in human form, to help us develop even further on the Earth Plane. This spiritual connection is because we have not finnished learning from these individual souls as they have even more to teach us. A type of positive karma influence you could say.

Plus there are the spiritual guides and teachers who no longer have to ascend to Earth to allow this process to occur for us. Their incarnation on Earth are no longer required of them.

Am pretty sure you know these things already. This info from Steiners Fifth Gospel book, plus a whole load of other books, his and other people’s, on spiritual consciouness and development. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:12 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Jesus’ death was completely unnecessary and a terrible misfortune. It would have been much better for the world if Jesus had been allowed to live and

>carry on his teaching work. The notion that it was somehow a necessary event for the salvation of humanity is the BIG LIE of Christianity.

Not really, things went the way they needed too, which path humanity choose after that was of course up to them. And as usual they took the wrong path, though corrections have been thrown in as necessary to keep it from going to far astray.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 3:01 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I haven’t read all of what Steiner said on his group (collective) soul thing, but what I have read doesn’t make any sense to me in regards to certain other things.

Now as for groups of souls working together (as opposed to soul mates), that seems to fit in with some things I know. I just can’t say how widespread it might be. Insofar as I can say right now, they usually work together to guide humanity in a certain direction.

As for learning, everybody learns from everybody to some extent, or maybe more appropriately, how to apply what we’ve learned elsewhere (my milaeage might vary somewhat on how the specifics work, except to say that everybody uses totems whether they realize it or not, and totems are how we carry skills and knowledge from one life to another as they become a part of us as necessary).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 6:47 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
BB: Not really, things went the way they needed too, which path humanity choose after that was of course up to them. And as usual they took the wrong path, though corrections have been thrown in as necessary to keep it from going to far astray.

IFF: Maybe things went the way they needed to, but that doesn’t make a false belief true. Either Christ died to atone for all of the sins of humanity, or he did not. I submit that this vicarious atonement was not the purpose or effect of his death. Belief that the substitute or vicarious sacrifice of Jesus is forever sufficient to grant all other individuals the ultimate rewards of sacred sacrifice is a false belief. There is no substitute for every person’s own self-sacrifice as the means of communing with God.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 7:44 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I didn’t say it does. I just said that things went the way they do most of the time, down the wrong path (at least in this universe).

Btw, he didn’t die for what it’s worth, he was removed from the cross before that moment (it might have been sometime after that he traveled to the east, but it wasn’t something he needed to do anyway, I think one of the other disciples did though). Although if it came down to it he would have done so, just as he’s done so before and will in the future.

As for the false belief, yeap. It doesn’t make any sense, unless you assume a limited Creator who’s unjust on top of that. By Christian standards, they are human judges better than God and more merciful.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 8:51 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Allfaaraa, I’m not minimizing anything. I’m simply sticking to the facts of what we know ancient Jews and Christians believed about the soul and bodily resurrection. I’m not interested in what some modern spiritual guru teaches, but in what authentic, historic, ancient Judaism and Christianity taught. We know from their WRITINGS that they BOTH taught BODILY resurrection of body AND soul TOGETHER.

As for Romans 8, read verses 18:24:Future Glory I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The CREATION WAITS in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the CREATION was subjected to FRUSTRATION, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the CREATION itself will be LIBERATED from its BONDAGE to DECAY and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the WHOLE CREATION has been GROANING as in the PAINS of CHILDBIRTH right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES. For in THIS hope we were saved. What part of redemption of our bodies is so difficult to grasp? This has EVERYTHING to do with a physical resurrection.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 8:58 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: How come Adam didn’t die when he ate, or did God die. Or better yet, is the death representative of another meaning entirely.

LEE: Read the Genesis account in Genesis 2, 3 and 5:From Genesis 2:And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it YOU WILL SURELY DIE.

The woman said to the serpent, We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, OR YOU WILL DIE.’ . . .To Adam he said, Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it’ . . . By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food UNTIL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND, since from it you were taken; for dust you are AND TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN. From Genesis 5:5:Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, AND THEN HE DIED. So Adam DID die, only the death was not immediate, as soon as he ate.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:02 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 3, 2009 9:02 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Than how come the other people died too? They didn’t eat.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:14 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee,My interpretation of the passage of Matthew is correct and true. You cannot see it because you approach your faith from an intellectual, rather than an experiential, perspective. I speak from what I have experienced, supporting it by the spiritual literature that I am familiar with. I have experienced spiritual baptism, ascension of the life energy within my body, opening of chakras or spiritual centers in my body, and the ecstatic receiving of, or communion with, the Holy Spirit. I experience the love and bodily bliss radiating from the spiritual heart, the sacred heart, within me everyday. In short, I know what I am talking about. I pray that you may come to see the depth within Christianity, and within yourself, that is presently hidden from you.

LEE: I can’t see it because your reading violates both the historical, literary and theological contexts of the passage. You’re basically forcing an interpretation onto the text that the text itself doesn’t teach. How can Matthew, a Jewish Christian, writing to other Jewish Christians to convince them that the crucified and bodily resurrected Yeshua was/is the long-awaited Henrew Messiah who would conquer sin and death, know anything at all about such esoteric Asian teachings?

It’s exactly the same principle as trying to read modern qunatum physics into Sir Isaac Newton’s works, or use a computer repair manual as a recipe book for omlets. Or reading Romeo and Juliet as 19th century British social commentary.

And I say again, experience of the kind you’re speaking can be very deceptive. How can you be certain your experience is genuine? You can’t. There’s no objective standard by which you can judge such things. Thus, you can rationalize whatever feeling you’re having at the moment as spiritual bliss given by the Holy Spirit. People have been doing it literally for centuries. Yet Paul, in I Thessalonians, warned that church to test the spirits to see whether they are from God or not. Because Satan exists, is powerful, and is deceptive, seeing as how he often masquerades as an angel of light.

My prayer for you and others here would be that you come to see the true Jesus instead of this deceptive Eastern caricature, that you will learn how to discern the spirits.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:17 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: IFF in relation to your comment re ascension.Plus – if Jesus was to share life with us in our human form and all this entails.. he would also have to share and experience physically dying would he not?? Otherwise his sacrifice could be viewed as being incomplete? LS

LEE: He DID physically die-that’s what crucifixion was. The basest, most horrific kind of public execution the Romans could devise. BUT-he didn’t STAY dead, but was bodily resurrected by God, thus conquering sin and death and proving his claim to deity.

Pax.Lee.




In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:27 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 3, 2009 9:34 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: How did this strange, silly idea that we’re all going to live in physical bodies for all eternity arise???

LEE: I’ve answered this question already, what, like a half-dozen times. The ancient Jews, who believed they got it by inspiration from God, believed in physical immmortality. It was a widespread Jewish idea that all of YHWH’s faithful would be physically resurrected. Christianity teaches the same thing. The Hebrews made no separation between body/spirit. If one is missing you don’t have a whole person. The idea that the psyche, or soul, is the real person is a Platonic idea rejected by early Jews and Christians. Plato was the one who taught that the created world is nothing but a shadow of the real, spiritual world. If you want a spiritual existence, freed from the prison of the created world, you want the much later heretical Gnostic texts (or the ascended Ancients in Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis). If you want original, authentic Judaism and Christianity, which teaches that life on the earth with physical immortality was God’s plan all along, you want the canonical Bible. You just CANNOT import concepts into the Bible that it’s authors would’ve denied vehemently. Our physical bodies are neither bad nor irrelevant.

So if physical resurrection is a silly idea, then you’re calling centuries of Jews and Christians silly for believing it. But that’s cool. We’ve been called much worse than that!

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:55 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>It’s exactly the same principle as trying to read modern qunatum physics into Sir Isaac Newton’s works,

One might point out that quantum physics somewhat negates Isaac’s works.Which somewhat proves one of my points.

>And I say again, experience of the kind you’re speaking can be very deceptive. How can you be certain your experience is genuine? You can’t.

>There’s no objective standard by which you can judge such things.

You should talk, you’re being a bit of a hypocrite here.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:59 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 3, 2009 10:12 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Than why does humanity cry to god to be released from their bodies?

Not to mention it contradicts other jewish beliefs.

Gan Eden: HeavenIn Judaism, the eternal destination for the righteous is Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden). It is generally described as a place of great joy and peace. Talmudic imagery includes: sitting at golden banquet tables (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Taanit 25a) or at stools of gold (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Ketubot 77b), enjoying lavish banquets (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Batra 75a), or celebrating the Sabbath, enjoying sunshine and sexual intercourse (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berachot 57b).

On the other hand, other sages have offered a more spiritual view of Gad Eden. Rav suggested that there will be neither eating nor drinking; no procreation of children or business transactions, no envy or hatred or rivalry; but sitting enthroned, their crowns on their heads, enjoying the Shechinah [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berachot 17a (3rd century CE)] . Maimonides agreed, explaining:

In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies — like the ministering angels… The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:01 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: I can’t see it because your reading violates both the historical, literary and theological contexts of the passage…

IFF: Maybe so, but its true, nevertheless. I’m more interested to observe that you ignored my comment that you approach the Bible from an intellectual perspective, rather than from your own experience. You then make the silly criticism that experience is unreliable and probably the result of Satan. I usually only get that from the most immature of Christians. I had hoped that you were better than that.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:03 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: How can Matthew, a Jewish Christian, writing to other Jewish Christians to convince them that the crucified and bodily resurrected Yeshua was/is the long-awaited Henrew Messiah who would conquer sin and death, know anything at all about such esoteric Asian teachings?

IFF: Matthew received his teachings from Jesus, who spent time in the East during his lost years, as well as in previous incarnations.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:14 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Obviously he didn’t otherwise:

The messianic age is a period in human history that will be initiated when the messiah comes. At that time the righteous dead will be resurrected, but the wicked will not. The messianic age will be a time of peace and the restoration of the land and organizations of Israel.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:38 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Maybe so, but its true, nevertheless. I’m more interested to observe that you ignored my comment that you approach the Bible from an intellectual perspective, rather than from your own experience. You then make the silly criticism that experience is unreliable and probably the result of Satan. I usually only get that from the most immature of Christians. I had hoped that you were better than that.

LEE: You’ve misunderstood me. Am I saying that experience in and of itself is satanic? Absolutely not. Am I arguing you are being led by the devil? Absolutely not. Am I saying that Christianity is based solely on intellect? Absolutely not. All I’m saying is that authentic Christianity teaches a balance between the mind/the intellect and experience. Before we can experience Jesus, we must first be persauded by our intellect that what the Bible and Christianity claim about him is true. Thus reason LEADS to, and UPHOLDS, faith. Reason tells me it’s reasonable to believe in Jesus. Christianity teaches that we have to have some objective criteria by which to judge whether our subjective experiences fall within the parameters of orthodox belief. That’s where the bible, esp.the New Testament comes in.

But Christianity also teaches that you can’t just interpret the Bible via subjective experience-there are rules for properly interpreting the Bible, just as you’d use for interpreting any other ancient historical texts. A key rule of sound biblical exegesis is paying attention to such things as who wrote the text, when they wrote the text, where they wrote the text, who they wrote it to, and finally, why they wrote it. But you also have to pay attention to the fact that the Old Testament is written in ancient Hebrew while the New Testament is written in ancient Koine (common) Greek. Sometimes biblical ideas/concepts just don’t translate as accurately into English as they apear in the original Hebrew or GK, though the translators generally do a great job. Thus Matthew 24 can’t subjectively mean one thing to you, another, totally different thing to me, and BOTH of us be right. The gospel authors had specific points they were trying to make.

I mean, would you read a computer tech manual in such a subjective, experiential way? Not if you wanted to properly understand it and thus keep your PC running. Nor could one interpret a historic text, like, say, Caesar’s Gallic Wars, in such a subjective fashion. According to Christian scripture commentators from the apostle Peter to St. Augustine, to CS Lewis, to NT Wright, neither can scripture be interpreted in such a fashion.

Ripping one verse out of its larger literary context in order to prove a preconceived idea is called by Christian exegetes prooftexting. It almost always involves rejecting the historical, literary, etc integrity of a text, by forcing it to say something its original author never intended.

That many otherwise well-meaning Christians routinely do this doesn’t make it right.

Christianity also teaches that Satan, the Devil, is a real entity, capable of great evil, but that he often disgiuses himself as an angel of light, in other words, he tricks people into doing/believing incorrect things. Paul warned to test the spirits to see whether they’re benign, and from God, or harmful, and diabolic. Christianity is clear that evil isn’t just an abstract philosophical construct, as some Eastern religions seem to teach, less still just a societal construct, as some atheists and humanists would argue. Nor is it relative. It’s objectively real.

So I’m not saying experience is diabolic, less still that you are. Nor am I denying that there is a subjective element to Christianity. Only that not all experiences are real, or good, or healthy. Christianity gives us tools to know the difference, tools that don’t depend upon our own subjectivity.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:42 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: LEE: How can Matthew, a Jewish Christian, writing to other Jewish Christians to convince them that the crucified and bodily resurrected Yeshua was/is the long-awaited Henrew Messiah who would conquer sin and death, know anything at all about such esoteric Asian teachings?IFF: Matthew received his teachings from Jesus, who spent time in the East during his lost years, as well as in previous incarnations.

LEE: Again, there’s just no evidence that this happened. It may be possible, just as it’s possible, as Prof. JD Crossan argues, that Jesus was a wandring Jewish Cyncic philosopher, but is it likely? No, it isn’t. Anymore than it’s likely that Jesus was a Cynic. It’s actually more likely that Jesus was a Jewish Cynic philosopher than that he was an Eastern guru. Find me ONE reputable Jesus scholar who believes Jesus traveled to India. Just one. Historically it just makes no sense.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:50 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURAYou have come a long way from the person who Mis- whatever, NAN HAMMADDI and many so called ScholarsJumped on you!Many charged you off as not worthy to present here on these forums! I had an entire day argument with one as such,It is a benefit to see that you INDEED ,make sense, have a high degree of spiritual awarnessand are on the TRUE PATH….I am not lucky to have Spiritual teachers from above< We all do! Yours have always been there, waiting ,watching,but first contact so to speak will come when YOU are SPIRITUALLY ABLE to recieve what they have to give to you,The Koran says that Every SOUL has a Watcher (ANGEL) The BIBLE is pretty clear on ANGELS alsobut the words of JESUS are rationalized or REASONED DOWN to fit within ones RELIGIOUS FRAMEWORK builtthrough /by ones CHURCH. The Church has been telling Christians how to believe for SO LONG, andhow to understand Scripture for so long, They all sound like Broken RECORDS arguing the same ARGUMENTSfor 1500 years, Faith or Works ,Catholic or Protestant ,Babtisim or Belief,Born again or?? IT SEEMSGOD keeps them IGNORANT ON PURPOSE as part of HIS PLAN<As you said about literature, keep reading ,and pretty soon YOU will find that Your Spiritual Conciousnesshas increased to ABOVE the LEVEL of the AUTHORS you are reading Than Youi begin DIRECT EXPERIENCEof what you have been reading, Next you have gone to TEACHER, and THIS can ONLY COME FROMDIRECT EXPERIENCE, I spent 20 years in Metaphysics,New Age if you will, as a Teacher, Studet ,Writer etcI taught Channelling,Astral projection, Meditation,Spiritual ascencion Psychometry,Sp[irit Guides,wrote, etc et5c, I read every thing out there I had a personal collection of 1500 books some very rareHowever I was always waiting for the NEXT CHANNELLED BOOK to come out to give me the answers my Angels werent giving me!, The next book cam but still nothing I had grown so MUCH SPIRITUALLY that The AUTHORS I was reading were not telling me anything I didnt Know or hadnt written!Six years ago by accident I picked up a BIBLE I automatically understood it, IT was CRYSTAL CLEARthe GREATEST SPIRITUAL BOOK I HAVE EVER READ It made Perfect SENSE,It has now become my LIFES WORK10 hours a day, except when I am goofing on AMAZON! I should have my book done this year, it willbe quite interesting, The BIBLE is the GREATEST SPIRITUAL BOOK I have ever read,It contains the truth OF WHO WE AREWHY WE ARE HERE,yaada yaada But the Bible is written on many Levels it is WRITTEN to YOUR SOUL/SPIRIT itcannot be understood through REASON ,It is not reasonable BUT SPIRITUAL THE bible CANNOT MAKE senseUNLESS YOU REDUCE THE SPIRITUAL INTERPRETATION TO FIT ONES RATIONAL MIND, and thenYOU getDOGMA and DOCTRINE and RULES and TEACHINGS that dont make sense.JESUS last name is not CHRISTJesus did not come to form A RELIGIONAlways question REASON seek from where did yopur current belief system has comeahh in the MOMENT where all Spiritual growth takes place! ALF



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 11:37 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: Christianity teaches that we have to have some objective criteria by which to judge whether our subjective experiences fall within the parameters of orthodox belief.

IFF: You first have to HAVE subjective experiences before you can begin to apply an interpretation. And I’m not talking about the superficial mental and emotional conversion toward surrender into belief and dependency on the person Jesus (who is presumed still to be mysteriously present as a universal God-Man), that passes for being born again among many Christians. The born again phenomenon initiated by Jesus was an esoteric procedure involving mystical experience and transformations in the cycle of the Life-Current within the body-mind. My impression is that most Christians aren’t aware of this because they have not actually received the second baptism — the baptism of fire, or second birth via the Holy Spirit — although many presume that they have. Also, why is the question of whether our experiences fall within the parameters of orthodox belief important? If you have some experience, whatever that experience is, wouldn’t it be wise to come to some understanding about it? If it is spiritual in nature, shouldn’t you try to see what is revealed by that experience? Otherwise, what do you do about it — ignore it, try to explain it away, see a psychiatrist, get an exorcism? Your comments suggest that you are rigidly identified with traditional Christian doctrine, and unable or unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. You approach Christianity intellectually and try to justify that by arguing that we cannot gain other types of knowledge (such as computer operation or history) through subjective methods. Don’t you realize that spirituality is fundamentally different than other types of human endeavors? Spirituality is about self-transformation, even if the source of that transformation is conceived to be due to an external God or savior. If you approach spirituality by simply trying to accumulate more knowledge, you will never really know God. God must be experienced directly as the Holy Spirit, with Whom we commune in ecstasy and are forever transformed. Anything less is a dead end.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 11:38 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEE youre KILLIN me!OUCH! Lee Romans 8 contains some of the most Spiritual Stuff in the NT, As Usual YOU have REASONED it Down!Rationalized it to FIT into YOUR BRAIN!! LEE it wont FIT! These are SPIRITUAL Words and Concepts!BTW yesterday YOUSAID VERSE 10;11 Today you are now speaking about verse 18thru 24Take a look Verse 18 Paul says the GLORY that which shall be REVEALED in US reffering to the WORKS ofthe HOLY SPIRIT in both HIM as an Apostle and the Gentiles as to the FLESHnext verse 19 the earnest expectation of the CREATION, What is the Creation LEE?verse 20 For the CREATION was made subject to vanity What is the Creation LEE?verse21 The CREATION it self also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE of CORRUPTIONIt is the CREATION in BONDAGE unders the LAW in the FLESH What is the CREATION LEE?verse22 the whole CREATION groans and travails in pain Together,What is the CREATION LEE?verse 23 and not only THEY who is THEY LEE? but OURSELVES who is OURSELVES LEE?verse 23 continued . Ourselves also who have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit Ourselves are the APOSTLESeven WE OURSELVES groan within OURSELVES waiting for the ADOPTION(key word) that isTHE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY, NOW LEE I will try to make this Reasonable to you so you can RATIONALLY understand, however this is a highly SPIRITUAL passage and takes knowledge of SPIRITUAL things, not taught in CHRISTIANITY!Verse 23 designates WHO is waiting FOR THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY that WHO is the OURSELVESI have been asking YOU ABOUT, It is the OURSELVES Not the GENTILES, whom are waiting for the redemptionof their BODIES, The verse says OUR BODY This BODY is the BODY composed of the MEMBERS (key groan within ourselves)that make up that Body all waiting for the BODY of OURSELVESto be REDEEMED, This BODY HAS NOTHING to do with the FLESH NOR RESSURECTION, NOR GENTILESWhom are the OURSELVES?What is the CREATION?WHO is/are the THEY in verse 23?LEE it is not REDEMPTION of BODIES as you said dont TWIST SCRIPTURE!It is a redemption of a BODY not BODIES of the GENTILESand it is a REDEMPTION not a RESSURECTION GENTILES are not REEDEEMED they are RECONCILIEDThey are ADOPTED, you cant BUY BACK nor BRING BACK that which you didnt have in the FIRST PLACEIf you will answer AS TO WHO IS WHAT in context you will COME to the TRUTHCONTEXT CONTEXTPeace Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 11:47 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Leealso JEWS as to BODILY RESURECTION RESSURECTION is a NT WORD you will not find it in the OT

Lee look in your STRONGS RESSURECTION is not in the NT and JEWS BELIEVED THIS!

Mk 12;18 Then came unto him the Sadducees, who say there is no ressurection,!

JEWS did not Believe in a BODILY RESURECTION OBVIOUSLY

<LEE the RESURECTION from the DEAD, is the SOUL that is being RESURECTED not YOUR FLESH



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 11:49 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA BRYAN

What are these STEINER BOOKS what is the Authors full name Which ones are the bEST or which have you read, My curiosity is awakened



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 11:52 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURABRYAN , it is not actually a GROUP SOUL that would be incorrect it is /was A COLLECTIVE CONCIOUSNESS

Animals have GROUP SOULS with ARCHANGELS whom administrate such

Mabey I wasnt clear sorry!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 12:01 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
ALFAARA: LEE youre KILLIN me!OUCH! Lee Romans 8 contains some of the most Spiritual Stuff in the NT, As Usual YOU have REASONED it Down!…

IFF: *LOL* I like your posts! Lee is hard to reach, isn’t he?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 12:30 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Also, why is the question of whether our experiences fall within the parameters of orthodox belief important? If you have some experience, whatever that experience is, wouldn’t it be wise to come to some understanding about it? If it is spiritual in nature, shouldn’t you try to see what is revealed by that experience? Otherwise, what do you do about it — ignore it, try to explain it away, see a psychiatrist, get an exorcism? Your comments suggest that you are rigidly identified with traditional Christian doctrine, and unable or unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. You approach Christianity intellectually and try to justify that by arguing that we cannot gain other types of knowledge (such as computer operation or history) through subjective methods. Don’t you realize that spirituality is fundamentally different than other types of human endeavors? Spirituality is about self-transformation, even if the source of that transformation is conceived to be due to an external God or savior. If you approach spirituality by simply trying to accumulate more knowledge, you will never really know God. God must be experienced directly as the Holy Spirit, with Whom we commune in ecstasy and are forever transformed. Anything less is a dead end.

LEE: IFF, you don’t really understand Christianity. I am rigidly identified with orthodox Christian doctrine because I am persuaded that it is correct. I base my understanding upon what orthodox Christianity teaches/has taught in the New Testament and the early creeds-which make no mention of reincarnation. What they DO make mention of (and the New Testament goes into great detail on this), is that Jesus was the long-expected Jewish Messiah, who was prophesied to do and be certain specific things. Christianity teaches a) that God exists outside time and space and b) that he incarnated himself as a human and was executed, at a certain point in recorded history. According to Christian belief, Jesus HAD to die and be BODILY resurrected. Thus it matters a great deal that this actually happened. If Jesus wasn’t literally, historically crucified and bodily resurrected, the whole Christian faith crumbles away, because the cross is the core of Christian belief, absent which it makes no sense.

All of Jesus’ moral/ethical/spiritual teachings pointed towards this climactic event. In fact, the whole Bible, Old and New Testaments, look forward and point backward to this event.

According to Christianity, true spirituality is not about self-transformation, but about God-transformation. Because human beings cannot remove our sin, cannot reverse the curse of physical and spiritual death that the fall brought about. Christianity maintains that if humans were able to bring about our own transformation, then Jesus died for nothing. Jesus transforms us-it isn’t something we can do ourselves. Christians would consider that a gospel of works, which Paul in his letters condemns. Paul condemns this kind of subjective, esoteric, me-centered spirituality in I and II Corinthians, Colossians and I Timothy. Christianity is all about saved Christians being called by God into communion-it isn’t every man or woman for himself/herself on their own lone, spiritual quest for self-awareness. Its about Jesus creating a spiritual Israel out of all of the saved.

If you REALLY want to understand what historic, authentic Christianity teaches, I would recommend NT Wright’s Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense. Its a short book, and is very readable.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 12:58 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Alfaaraa, read Romans 5, where Paul connects Adam’s sin through disobedience with salvation through Christ’s obedience. Paul ties redemption of humans in with a reversal of the bondage that creation was subjected to via the fall. Peter echoes this in II Peter when he says that we are awaiting a new heavens and new earth. John echoes this in Revelation 21:Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.This creation of a new heavens and new earth was actually prophesied in Isaiah 65:17:Behold, I will create NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

And Isaiah 66:21:As the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH that I make will endure before me, declares the LORD, so will your name and descendants endure.

In Romans 8, Paul uses the plural bodies. The GK word is soma, Strong’s G4982, which as the context makes clear refers to physical bodies.

Physical, bodily resurrection and the creation of a new heavens and new earth goes all the way back to the Old Testament.

The idea that our bodies are disposable, that our disembodied souls are the real us and go to heaven when we die, is Platonism and Gnosticism, not orthodox Christian belief. Why do you think Jesus was resurrected BODILY? Because our bodies matter and God intends to resurrect them.Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:01 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: According to Christianity, true spirituality is not about self-transformation, but about God-transformation….

IFF: When I write self-transformation, I’m not suggesting that one excludes God. What I’m stressing is our own role in the atonement. We are each obliged to self-transcending personal and moral responsibility, and to be a sacrifice, through love and self-release, through ecstasy, and through abandoning rigid reactivity and self-possession when confronted with the circumstances of life. Too often, Christians have a sense of surrender to God or Christ, and then assume that Jesus will take of everything, abandoning their own responsibility for self-discipline, and loving and compassionate service and forgiveness, since Jesus supposedly will save us from the wages of our sins. This is justified by the view that we are inherently sinful or cut-off from God, and so incapable of doing much about our terrible state. Unfortunately, this view encourages a spiritual and moral laziness among many Christians, who prefer the easier and more secular act of mere allegiance to systems of myth, belief, ritual, and dogma.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:02 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: IFF, you don’t really understand Christianity.

IFF: Lee, you don’t really know the Living Spirit that is God.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:21 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 3, 2009 1:47 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
ALFAARA: Leealso JEWS as to BODILY RESURECTIONRESSURECTION is a NT WORD you will not find it in the OTLee look in your STRONGS RESSURECTION is not in the NT and JEWS BELIEVED THIS!Mk 12;18 Then came unto him the Sadducees, who say there is no ressurection,!JEWS did not Believe in a BODILY RESURECTION OBVIOUSLY<LEE the RESURECTION from the DEAD, is the SOUL that is being RESURECTED not YOUR FLESH LEE: Alfaara, study your Jewish theology more carefully. As I said a couple of pages ago, by the time of Christ, nearly all Jews-except the Sadducees, possibly as much for political reasons as theological, and possibly the Essenes, though this is not certain-believed in bodily resurrection. We know from their own writings that Pharisees believed in bodily resurrection, but also from the New Testament. For example, Acts 23:6-8 says:Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead. When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)One of the main texts 2nd Temple Jews like the Pharisees used to support their belief in bodily resurrection was a verse from the OT book of Daniel, 12:2, which says:Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.So no, the word resurrection itself isn’t used, but the idea’s definitely there. This belief in physical resurrection got stronger and was articulated much clearer in later Jewish texts. For example, here’s 2 Maccabees 7:9-11, recounting the martyrdom of some Jews:At the point of death he said: You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying.After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: It was from Heaven that I received these; for the sake of his laws I disdain them; from him I hope to receive them again.Now 2 Maccabees 12:42-45:(A)nd they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the RESURRECTION. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would RISE AGAIN, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.Now here’s Josephus on bodily resurrection:. . People who depart from this life in accordance with nature’s law, thus repaying what God has lent them, when the giver wants to claim it back again, win everlasting fame. Their houses and families are secure. Their souls remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come around again, they come back again to live instead in holy bodies. Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-100 AD), Wars of the Jews (ca. 79 AD), 3.374fEvery person, trusting in the evidence of their own conscience, on the basis of the lawgiver’s prophecies and the strong faithfulness of God, is persuaded that if they observe the laws and, if necessary, are prepared to die for them, God has given them a renewed existence and to receive a new life out of the renewal. – Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-100 AD), Against Apion, 2.217f, ca. 93 ADNow here’s the Pharasiac Mishnah, Sanhedrin X.1:All Israelites have a share in the world to come. . . . And these are they that have no share in the world to come: he that says there is no resurrection of the dead prescribed in the Law, and [he that says] that the Law is not from Heaven, and an Epicurean.For Jews resurrection always meant bodily, physical.Here’s Jesus in Matthew 16:21:From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.The word translated raised up, is the GK word egeira, G1453, which Strong’s defines as:1) to arouse, cause to risea) to arouse from sleep, to awakeb) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to lifec) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear1) to cause to appear, bring before the public2) to raise up, stir up, against one3) to raise up i.e. cause to be bornSo the Jews DID take bodily resurrection for granted. And Jesus was himself bodily resurrected-remember when he appeared to his disciples after his resurrection he took pains to reassure the disciples that he wasn’t a ghost or spirit:They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, Do you have anything here to eat? They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. (Luke 28: 38-40)How many ghosts or spirits do you know who eat broiled fish?

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:29 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Bodily resurrection in general does not mean the physical body, but the spiritual body. The physical resurrection of Jesus was a special case. Physical resurrections are exceedingly rare.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:40 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 3, 2009 1:49 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Bodily resurrection in general does not mean the physical body, but the spiritual body. The physical resurrection of Jesus was a special case. Physical resurrections are exceedingly rare.

LEE: See my above to Alfaara. To intertestamental Jews, resurrection was ALWAYS physical. Jews didn’t believe in the Platonic idea of the division of body and soul. To the Jews if you remove either one you have an incomplete human being. The body isn’t something that’s non-important, disposable, or bad. That’s the Platonic and Gnostic view.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:47 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:13 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 1:48 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 3:14 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: To intertestamental Jews, resurrection was ALWAYS physical. Jews didn’t believe in the Platonic idea of the division of body and soul. To the Jews if you remove either one you have an incomplete human being.

IFF: Then the Jews were wrong.

Lee: The body isn’t something that’s non-important, disposable, or bad. That’s the Platonic and Gnostic view.

IFF: So, you believe that you are your body? Really?




In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 3:35 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 8:33 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Look here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/

I’d only recommend Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, but that was the only one I was led to at first understand the Guardians, and than confirmation of some other things.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 8:36 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
I might go for some sort of collective consciousness (as per the Dark Voice).

Actually all the Kingdoms have a Spirit Guardian, including Man.

I don’t think animals have group souls, however some insects and plants might.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 8:42 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy

>City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from

>the throne saying, Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be

>their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has

>passed away.

Lee,You really need to learn symbology, the holy spirit and angels speak via symbolism, just like you do, however you’ve attached words to the symbols, they haven’t, in their case concepts are related to symbols.

In spiritual matters there is an entirely new language to learn. Sometimes more than one.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 8:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 3, 2009 8:44 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Lee,I notice you have this blind spot, here is a quote that contradicts you(posted once again):

In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies — like the ministering angels… The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:04 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 9:07 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 3, 2009 10:00 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
Posted on
July 3, 2009 10:24 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:07 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 7:46 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

As to animals having group Souls its from the Kabalah

In Ailimah, it speaks about the Angels over them and the group Soul.

Technically speaking, CHRIST is a Collective Conciousness, Since all individual Souls are Fragmented from

the ONE and are all ASPECTS of the SAME ONE

LUCIFER and how He relates to the EGO is the LARGEST Collective Concious

>>Actually all the Kingdoms have a Spirit Guardian

How about ARCHANGEL? does that work for you?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 8:16 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 4, 2009 8:24 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
<<<<,As to animals having group Souls its from the KabalahIn Ailimah, it speaks about the Angels over them and the group Soul.Technically speaking, CHRIST is a Collective Conciousness, Since all individual Souls are Fragmented fromthe ONE and are all ASPECTS of the SAME ONELUCIFER and how He relates to the EGO is the LARGEST Collective Concious>>>>>>

Depends on what they qualify as animal. But if nothing else my experience contradicts them. I have a soul mate who’s a cat, she died some years ago, but her spirit still follows me around (all eight of them – which makes me tend to believe that cats have 9 lives to go through – so I expect to see her one more time as a cat or whatever passes for one in the future).Not to mention, that I’m stuck here till every living thing is outta here, and everything is alive it appears. Which is mostly okay, except that there will be worlds even worse than this one. Still lots to learn. Lots to love.

>>Actually all the Kingdoms have a Spirit Guardian>How about ARCHANGEL? does that work for you?No, Spirit Guardian, which as far as I know doesn’t equate to Archangel (not that I’m into the title labeling thing, but). Where they rank in any heirarchy, I can’t say, nor is it something I’m really worried about (too many other more interesting things out there that I’d prefer to ‘see’ again).There current assigned job is to heal and protect the Earth (note – Earth, not humanity).Some of them -Guardian spirits of the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, Void. (ran into someone around this period who was being told to deal with the Void).Guardian Spirits of Man, animals. birds, insect (and I think fish). Being ‘told’ about the guardian spirits of birds and insects was an interesting experience.Guardian Spirits of the North, South, East and West. These are the best known in most traditions, and most used in magic.

Guardian Spirits of Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Metal(? this last might be in another category, been awhile since I was required to call on them).Guardian Spirit – King, Queen, Bishop, Knight, castle(stone?), pawn. Yes, it appears the game of chess represents them.

And more – about 36 if I recall correctly.



Posted on
July 4, 2009 8:26 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
[Deleted by the author on July 6, 2009 3:51 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 8:49 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
U HoverI am reading your post jul 3,3;35 pmI will sum up your first 10 lines before you start quoting scripture,YOU Still have GOT it Backwards! CMON U just give it A little TWIST and you got it! YOU know this Stuff! Have you Forgotten??You are Fallen kept in chains by the books that you read and Christianity!You keep putting the CART before the HORSE ,This is the fallacy of organized religion, the Ignorancekeeps you in Chains..If you read your words carefully ,you will see that Lines 1,2,3 are pretty much correct Good work!Line 4 is the KEY OUR temporary vehicle the flesh body, THIS IS TRUTH, the OUR is the real YOU the SOUL not the BODYLine 5 OUR ticket correct You are confirming YOU as the Soul! Excellent!Line 6 This is where you GO BACKWARDS! you say OURSOUL You have now Twisted YOU to be the Body and OUR SOUL Not YOU ,Madeto be a SEPARATE Conciousness other than YOURSELF, TRUTH YOU could/should have said I AM a part of the BODY OF GODLine 7 Our true SOUL Once again True Soul?? You are the SOUL! You have a HOUSE in the BODY OF GOD!U Understand that the body is a Vehicle, temporary housing if you will, in which YOU the SOUL Create your self ABOVE (earn Glory)and Glorify YOUR CREATOR! THIS IS KEY TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!Only through the FLESH BELOW, on EARTH can YOU EXPAND, GROW, GLORIFY, YOURSELF,AND GOD ABOVE, in the HeavensThe SOUL is only a portion of the REAL CONCIOUSNESS that YOU really Are! The SOUL is a umm? Percentage of the FULL conciousnesswhich is ALL of YOU, which is ABOVE , The real YOU ABOVE can ONLY BE GROWN< INCREASED< GLORIFIED, EXPANDEDthrough the VESSELL or FLESH , BELOW on the EARTH In Growing, Creating YOU, you GROW AND CREATE GOD !!!!!!Paul in ROM8;17 Joint-heirs with Christ yaadayaada So that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER,YOU and JESUS TOGETHER GLORIFYING YOURSELVES AND GOD!Point being YOU are THE TRUE SOUL not the FLESH and BEWARE of the SPIRIT this is the CONCIOUSNESS of the FLESH the EGO ,It is the Individual personality, so POWERFUL that YOU think YOU are the FLESH the BODY!Most DO NOT KNOW that BOTH GROW TOGETHER!! The CONCIOUSNESS that IS GOD and ??????In GLORIFYING GOD and YOURSELF YOU also GLORIFY SOMEBODY ELSE!!!! To this ALL ARE IGNORANT!!Your Scripture presented is GREAT! But do you know WHO? the author is refferring to ???HMMMCome on U show your stuff! Who are the THEY , aho are the THEM ,tell MEU I know you glean a lot from Websites and BOOKS Is this your WORK from your understanding??or are you posting other peoples words? If so tell me WHO so I can agree or DISAGREE with THEM!U remember just beacuse ONE is Published does not mean they are CORRECT, and what WAS may have CHANGEDGOD is ALWAYS EXPANDING, GROWING so to speak So are YOU, You are very close to recieving all you are seekingBut MORE of YOU and less of them is good…Get rid of that SOULISH BODY STUFF! THE SOULS BODY IS ‘THE ANGEL’ And now YOU HAVE IT! Xify me if you WILL!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 8:51 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYANSacred texts.com was that as to Steiner?So higher worlds is his?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 8:52 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BYANThe dark voice?Wasnt that a MOVIE?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 8:58 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
UChristians have attempted to REDUCE the GLORY of ISRAEL comming up with JEWS,a name they could slander a NT word, JESUS is the GLORY of ISRAEL, the CULMINATION of their GLORY and WORK,this is why SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS!!If not for their WORK their would be no NEW CREATION I am not into quoting Scripture today I am Lazy I live on a Lake and I am Taking my boat out for the FOURTH See ya



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 9:01 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
U HOVERWhy are you quoting ROMANS only ,is it BIBLE on Line and your computer is stuck on one Chapter??Turn the PAGE friend, Ther is much in other BOOKS or should I call you CHRISTINE!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 9:02 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
yes.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 9:04 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Not that I know of…..As for the term, it’s what came to mind as to it’s name……sneaky little bugger too……



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 9:05 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Hover isn’t that bad, however he might be a little to stuck on Cayce…..(and the bible, LOL)…..



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 9:10 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

I would not disagree with you but from what I understand and have extensively read,in the Past is that

Souls that Incarnate in Humans dont incarnate in Animals, But as you are sure, than it must not be SO,As I said just because One is PUBLISHED does not make them correct,Read The SEFER RAZIEL THE ANGEL the Guardians in their HIGHEST FORMS are ARCHANGELS MAZAL in HEBREWthe SPIRIT CONCIOUSNESS or GUARDIANS of REALMS whether you call them Archangels or Spirit guardiansmakes no difference the difference is in ones understanding, no?Good you know your place!! I too am stuck here till the END and the FIRST shall be LAST..Do you or have you or are you aware of your TIES TO the ISRAEL of OLD,..??



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 9:53 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>I would not disagree with you but from what I understand and have extensively read,in the Past is that

>Souls that Incarnate in Humans dont incarnate in Animals, But as you are sure, than it must not be SO,

>As I said just because One is PUBLISHED does not make them correct,I could always be wrong, but I don’t think so in this case, though there might be some exceptions.Also, not all animals are animals. Exceptions that I know of are dolphins, whales and orcas.

>Read The SEFER RAZIEL THE ANGEL the Guardians in their HIGHEST FORMS are ARCHANGELS MAZAL in HEBREW

>the SPIRIT CONCIOUSNESS or GUARDIANS of REALMS whether you call them Archangels or Spirit guardians

>makes no difference the difference is in ones understanding, no?

No, but I’m not to sure the two equate at this point. Unless they are different forms of the same being.

>Good you know your place!! I too am stuck here till the END and the FIRST shall be LAST..

>Do you or have you or are you aware of your TIES TO the ISRAEL of OLD,..??Well, not if you listen to Christine. But I know how I started on this path, who I’ve been (roughly) and who I will be at the end, at least for this universe.

As for ties to Israel, depends on what you mean by ties. I’ve had some connection with them in at least two lives I can trace, directly and indirectly. There might be more.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 10:40 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:06 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 2:14 PM PDT

Paul A. Slysh says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Oct. 17, 2009 2:54 PM PDT]
Posted on
July 4, 2009 2:36 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
for a biblical christian that he was resurrected is a must to be a christian….as for passion it needs the proper impersonal and personal combination to be all it should bea la the tao te ching too




In reply to an earlier post on
July 4, 2009 2:48 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFeel Free,

Think we are all getting confused now. I do agree with you that it is just the spiritual body that reincarnates. I was just wondering if Jesus could actually reincarnate in his physical form. Out of anyone he would be the most likely person who could actually do this as he was such an spiritual entity. For me he wouldn’t have to… but just wondered if he could have, if it was part of his requirement for all of humanitys spritual development and growth. LS



Posted on
July 4, 2009 11:33 PM PDT

Lover of Wisdom says:
What I want to know is why Christianity has so many similarities to Mystery Religions, like atonement from sin through baptism, such as in the religions of Dionysus and Mithras?

Is it generally considered that Paul brought these factors into Christianity?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 5, 2009 6:25 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>I was just wondering if Jesus could actually reincarnate in his physical form

More than probably, or at least something close to that.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 5, 2009 9:03 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA

< IFFIFF you make excellent points to the SCHOLARY LEE And you show great wisdom!I am reading Lauras post Where it says You said Just the Spiritual Body Reincarnates,I would present a different Point of View!The SPIRITUAL BODY NEVER REINCARNATES! THE SPIRITUAL BODY INCARNATES! THE REAL YOU IS THE SPIRITUAL BODYIt is the ASPECT of the SPIRITUAL BODY or the SOUL which REINCARNATES… PART OF YOU!The SOUL, or CONCIOUSNESS ,ASPECT ,PARTS of the SPIRITUAL BODY is only a FRAGMENT of the SPIRITUAL BODYExperiencing IN FORM….. OH Before you say it ,YES Spiritually speaking, The SOUL HAS A BODY ALSO!LAURA Try this on,!!! You asked could JESUS Reincarnate in his physcial form??WE ARE JESUS in his PHYSCIAL FORM, well in physcial FORM anyhow!After I get jumped on for this last statement I will support it with SCRIPTURE,Where do YOU think and FROM whom does YOUR SOUL COME, well, going up to the TOP! orFirst FRAGMENTATION!



Posted on
July 5, 2009 9:39 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
laura,Found something you might want to read (starting around page 78):

http://www.consciouslivingfoundation.org/ebooks/13/CLF-Mystic_Christianity-Yogi%20Ramacharaka.pdf



Posted on
July 5, 2009 9:44 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Lee,To reiterate something I said another way:Thus we find this doctrine made the defense of the justice of God. If a soul can be made good, then to make asoul evil is to a God of justice and love impossible. It cannot be done. There is no justification for it, and themoment you recognize that men are born criminal, you are either forced into the blasphemous position that aperfect and loving God creates a ruined soul and then punishes it for being what He has made it, or else thatHe is dealing with growing, developing creatures whom He is training for ultimate blessedness, and if in anylife a man is born wicked and evil, it is because he has done amiss and must reap in sorrow the results of evilin order that he may learn wisdom and turn to good.Origen also considers the story of Pharaoh, of whom the Biblical writers say that his heart was hardened byGod. Origen declares that the hardening of the heart was caused by God so that Pharaoh would more readilylearn the effect of evil, so that in his future incarnations he might profit by his bitter experience. He says:Sometimes it does not lead to good results for a man to be cured too quickly, especially if the disease, beingshut up in the inner parts of the body, rage with greater fierceness. The growth of the soul must be understoodas being brought about not suddenly, but slowly and gradually, seeing that the process of amendment andcorrection will take place imperceptibly in the individual instances, during the lapse of countless andunmeasured ages, some outstripping others, and tending by a swifter course towards perfection, while others,again, follow close at hand, and some, again, a long way behind.He also says: Those who, departing this life in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged inconformity with their actions and deserts–according as they shall be deemed worthy–some in the place calledthe ‘infernus,’ others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions. So also from theseplaces, as if dying there, if the expression can be used, they come down from the ‘upper world’ to this ‘hell.’For that ‘hell’ to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world is, I believe, on account of thisdestruction, called ‘the lower hell.’ Everyone accordingly of those who descend to the earth is, according to hisdeserts, or agreeably to the position that he occupied there, ordained to be born in this world in a differentcountry, or among a different nation, or in a different mode of life, or surrounded by infirmities of a differentkind, or to be descended from religious parents, or parents who are not religious; so that it may sometimeshappen that an Israelite descends among the Scythians, and a poor Egyptian is brought down to Judea.(Origen against Celsus.)



Posted on
July 5, 2009 10:58 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 5, 2009 11:01 AM PDT

Jessi says:
I was reading over all the postings. I have never been on a discussion before. The banter is very interesting. I personally believe that the bible will be interpreted differently by each reader, I leave myself open to understanding. Reincarnation may or may not be in the bible, but are those the answers that you are really looking for. Trust in the lord and seeking guidance brings me peace of mind. If god wants me to live again on earth, so be it. a closed heart cannot be filled with the love of god.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 5, 2009 1:44 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:06 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 5, 2009 3:04 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Laura: Think we are all getting confused now.

IFF: I am clear about what I am saying.

Laura: I do agree with you that it is just the spiritual body that reincarnates…

IFF: The spiritual body is what you have when your physical body dies. In order to reincarnate on the earth — the physical plane — you must take on a new physical body. That simply means that your soul (along with its spiritual body) enters the body of a developing child in a pregnant woman’s body. If a soul does not enter the developing child’s body, the baby cannot be born alive and a stillborn or miscarriage occurs. Reincarnation means that your soul returns again and again until you have learned the lessons that you must learn from this realm. The spiritual body is the encasement that your soul retains when the physical body dies. It allows you to function in the higher spiritual realms. Eventually, even the spiritual body is discarded.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 6, 2009 8:54 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 6, 2009 9:31 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
[My post from Page 23]

Regarding the sin – redemption idea:

If the Abrahamic god knows the future (revelation), he should have known how Lucifer would act/react, how Adam/Eve would behave. So, is it fair to create creatures who you know will not obey you, and then punish them and also their progeny? And later violate his own rules and enter the world in the form of a human…

Can I see some answers (from scripture) for my previous questions?

>>I said

>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}

>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}

>>

>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily

>>resurrected believers when {B} happens?



Posted on
July 7, 2009 2:38 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 7, 2009 2:45 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Emerson, Evolution, and Transmigration

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/i_es/i_es_gordo_evolution_frameset.htm
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/i_es/i_es_gordo_emerson_frameset.htm
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/i_es/i_es_gordo_comparison_frameset.htm
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/inner_sci_essays_frameset.htm



In reply to an earlier post on
July 7, 2009 3:53 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 7, 2009 4:27 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: Lee,I notice you have this blind spot, here is a quote that contradicts you(posted once again):In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies — like the ministering angels… The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8)

LEE: Bryan, this contradicts nothing I’ve said. The Mishnah wasn’t compiled until ca. 200 AD, and R Maimonides did not compile the Mishneh Torah until ca. 1180 AD, long after the time of Jesus.You are making a mistake that many people make, that of confusing the beliefs of Rabbinical Judaism with the pre 70 AD, 2nd Temple Judaism of Jesus’ day, as if what Medieval or modern Jews believe is what Jews in Jesus’ day believed, when such is obviously not the case. As I said earlier, by the time of Christ, nearly all Jews, except the Sadducees, possibly as much for political reasons as theological (because bodily resurrection was a view held by Jewish liberationist sects like the Pharisees and Zealots, and the Sadducees wanted to distance themselves from these groups), and possibly the Essenes, (though this is not certain), believed in bodily resurrection. One of the main texts in defense of the 2nd Temple Jewish idea of bodily resurrection was:

Daniel 12:2, which says:

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.The original Jewish view seems to have been that there was no afterlife of any kind. You returned to the dust you were created from. But after the return from exile, many Jews began rethinking their earlier views on what happens to YHWH’s faithful when they die. Bodily resurrection began to be linked with YHWH’s vindication of national Israel. This belief in physical resurrection got stronger and was articulated much clearer in later Jewish texts. For example, here’s 2 Maccabees 7:9-11, recounting the martyrdom of some Jews:

At the point of death he said: You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying. After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: It was from Heaven that I received these; for the sake of his laws I disdain them; from him I hope to receive them again. Now 2 Maccabees 12:42-45:(A)nd they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the RESURRECTION. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would RISE AGAIN, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. Now here’s Josephus on bodily resurrection:. . People who depart from this life in accordance with nature’s law, thus repaying what God has lent them, when the giver wants to claim it back again, win everlasting fame. Their houses and families are secure. Their souls remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come around again, they come back again to live instead in holy bodies. Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-100 AD), Wars of the Jews (ca. 79 AD), 3.374fEvery person, trusting in the evidence of their own conscience, on the basis of the lawgiver’s prophecies and the strong faithfulness of God, is persuaded that if they observe the laws and, if necessary, are prepared to die for them, God has given them a renewed existence and to receive a new life out of the renewal. – Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-100 AD), Against Apion, 2.217f, ca. 93 AD

Now here’s the Pharasiac Mishnah, Sanhedrin X.1:All Israelites have a share in the world to come. . . . And these are they that have no share in the world to come: he that says there is no resurrection of the dead prescribed in the Law, and [he that says] that the Law is not from Heaven, and an Epicurean. For ancient 2nd Temple Jews resurrection always meant bodily, physical. You can’t prooftext from medieval Jewish beliefs and read them back into 2nd Temple Judaism. For the best study available I can’t recommend NT Wright’s scholarly treatment The Resurrection of the Son of God highly enough. Among other things, Wright examines ever major and minor ancient Jewish text dealing with resurrection and the afterlife, comparing Jewish beliefs with pagan beliefs and Christian beliefs, based upon an examination of those relevant texts. Its long at 817 pp, and very technical but is the best treatment of the subject out there.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 12:29 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
All all you’ve said points to reincarnation…And there was another post I made, can’t find it again of course. Not that it matters, you’ve proved my point (You’ll find out which one eventually).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 8:01 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
BRYAN BORICH: All all you’ve said points to reincarnation…And there was another post I made, can’t find it again of course. Not that it matters, you’ve proved my point (You’ll find out which one eventually).

LEE: You’re joking, right? How can you POSSIBLY get reincarnation from these?:Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the RESURRECTION. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would RISE AGAIN, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would ‘rise again’ . . .This is dead bodies coming back to life, not souls transmigrating. You’re so blinded by reincarnation you see it everywhere. I’ve never met such entrenched subjectivism. Don’t bother with me with facts because I’ve already made up my mind.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 8:20 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 8:22 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Lee says

>>The original Jewish view seems to have been that there was no afterlife of any kind. You returned to the dust you were created from. But after the return from exile, many Jews began rethinking their earlier views [...]. This belief in physical resurrection got stronger and was articulated much clearer in later Jewish texts.

That shows the Jews ‘borrowed’ Egyptian belief in bodily resurrection. Since they were gypsy nomads they did not have the resources for embalming and building temples/pyramids. This desert nomads’ ‘true’ religion is therefore a complete hodgepodge of other peoples’ myths & beliefs.

Nothing original in it except bigotry and a bigot-god who will allow land grabbing with impunity. This land-grabbing-bigot-religion which the Jews implemented on a small scale, the Christians and Muslims implemented on a global scale – with an added twist – conversion. These three dogmas are opposed to the most basic aspect of Mother Nature – Diversity. They are utterly incompatible with Nature, contradict intellect and a grave threat to civilization.

I am still waiting for answers to my earlier questions…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 8:48 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
DOGMATOXIN: Lee says>>The original Jewish view seems to have been that there was no afterlife of any kind. You returned to the dust you were created from. But after the return from exile, many Jews began rethinking their earlier views [...]. This belief in physical resurrection got stronger and was articulated much clearer in later Jewish texts.That shows the Jews ‘borrowed’ Egyptian belief in bodily resurrection. Since they were gypsy nomads they did not have the resources for embalming and building temples/pyramids. This desert nomads’ ‘true’ religion is therefore a complete hodgepodge of other peoples’ myths & beliefs.Nothing original in it except bigotry and a bigot-god who will allow land grabbing with impunity. This land-grabbing-bigot-religion which the Jews implemented on a small scale, the Christians and Muslims implemented on a global scale – with an added twist – conversion. These three dogmas are opposed to the most basic aspect of Mother Nature – Diversity. They are utterly incompatible with Nature, contradict intellect and a grave threat to civilization.I am still waiting for answers to my earlier questions…

LEE: The Egyptians didn’t believe in bodily resurection, or at least not the same kind. Egyptian dead didn’t return to THIS earth in their same bodies-they lived as mummies in the world of the dead. Regardless, the Jews couldn’t have borrowed this belief from the Egyptians because, notice I said that there’s no evidence for a Jewish belief in bodily resurrection until after the Jewish return from exile. As I said above, they joined this belief in bodily resurrection to a belief that YHWH (God) would vindicate and liberate national Israel.

Bigotry huh? And only monotheistic religions are bigoted? And what does diversity have to do with whether or not a religion is true ? And which earlier questions are you referring to?

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 8:51 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 8:52 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

To rise again may be interpreted as reincarnating — to rise again on the material plane in a new physical body. It is the soul which rises again, not the physical body, which is dead and decayed. The soul must enter a new body in order rise again. I know reincarnation is true because I have memories of previous lives.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 8:59 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>This is dead bodies coming back to life, not souls transmigrating. You’re so blinded by reincarnation you see it everywhere. I’ve never met such
>entrenched subjectivism. Don’t bother with me with facts because I’ve already made up my mind.

Actually till I ‘woke’ up I was neither here nor there or it, till I had it proved to me in various ways.

The first, was that my mother used to call me by a past life name.

Second was Jesus asking me to follow him again.

Third and etc…, was being shown some of my ‘past’ lives and told about others. Also meeting others from past lives. Also ‘future’ lives.

Also when ‘asking’ to be shown where it was in the bible, I was given two quotes, both by Jesus speaking to that……I would admit I didn’t get an answer in Islam directly, but was reminded they were still people of the book, so what is in the bible still applies to them.

And maybe last but not least was talking to some of the disciples (as have you), who agree.

Sorta makes more sense than violation of physical laws, even magic follows the laws of the universe.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 9:00 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
<Lee says>>The original Jewish view seems to have been that there was no afterlife of any kind. You returned to the dust you were created from. But after the return from exile, many Jews began rethinking their earlier views [...]. This belief in physical resurrection got stronger and was articulated much clearer in later Jewish texts..

In reference to that, from what I understand the jews weren’t particularly interested in the afterlife, since in order to get there they had to perfect themselves in this life in the first place.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 9:33 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 9:35 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
Bryan, you’re subjectively reading your personal views about reincarnation into ancient Judaism. Ancient Judaism made no distinction between body/soul. When the Hebrews used the word nephesh, sometimes translated soul, they were referring to the WHOLE person, not just the immaterial, spirit part of him.

Judaism wasn’t about achieving salvation or the afterlife via perfecting themselves, at least not the Judaism of Jesus’ day. 2nd Temple Jews were motivated to follow Torah BECAUSE they were ALREADY saved, a member of YHWH’s chosen people. In Jewish thought, first came the Exodus, THEN the Torah was given. Thus no orthodox 2nd Temple Jew expected to earn his salvation by moral achievemt or obeying Torah. 2nd Temple Jews generally were awaiting YHWH’s vindication and liberation of national Israel, which would presage the final inauguration of his kingdom on earth, at which time he would recreate humanity, drawing in the Gentiles. Christianity offered a twist on this by saying that national Israel, comprised as it was of fallen human beings, was incapable of being the instrument through which YHWH would save the world and recreate fallen humanity, Jews and Gentiles, into one people, thus fulfilling his promise to Abraham. Thus, Yeshua (Jesus), God incarnate, stood in, as it were, for Israel, fulfiiling her vocation in person via his death, burial and resurrection. Judaism simply knew nothing about the transmigration of souls. Nor did/does Christianity. Both faiths were about YHWH saving and recreating the physical world and the people who inhabit it.

You really should study ancient 2nd Temple Jewish and early Christian beliefs. I really cannot recommend NT Wright’s books highly enough.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 10:03 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 10:08 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
>>Bigotry huh? And only monotheistic religions are bigoted?

Abrahamic dogmas are exclusive and explicitly support and encourage bigotry – in fact bigotry is considered a virtue. BTW Judaism and Islam would consider Churchianity to be polytheistic.

>>And what does diversity have to do with whether or not a religion is true ?

The exclusive claim of one true religion, by the Abrahamic dogmas, is utterly incompatible with Nature (which insists on diversity at all levels of being, from micro to macro). This seriously violates the basic Law of Nature. So, any religion that insists on one path for salvation/self-realization is false. Hindu philosophy clearly recognizes that: there are as many paths as there are people – which is perfectly in harmony with Mother Nature. Diversity is the most obvious and central aspect of Nature – but it is totally rejected by Abrahamic dogma.

>>And which earlier questions are you referring to?

These that I have already repeated twice or may be more:
http://www.amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdMsgNo=685&cdPage=28&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx2GQ6JC7VUC0T8&displayType=tagsDetail&cdMsgID=MxZVXPXNWW20GJ#MxZVXPXNWW20GJ



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 10:18 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 10:22 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
DOGMATOXIN: The exclusive claim of one true religion, by the Abrahamic dogmas, is utterly incompatible with Nature (which insists on diversity at all levels of being, from micro to macro). This seriously violates the basic Law of Nature. So, any religion that insists on one path for salvation/self-realization is false. Hindu philosophy clearly recognizes that: there are as many paths as there are people – which is perfectly in harmony with Mother Nature. Diversity is the most obvious and central aspect of Nature – but it is totally rejected by Abrahamic dogma.

LEE: All three Abrahamic faiths insist that YHWH/God/Allah exists outside of time, space, and nature, thus is not bound by nature. God CREATED nature, thus isn’t bound by it.

Didn’t the early Hindus fight religious wars? And didn’t Hinduism insist on a class system more rigid and inflexible than anything in Judaism, Christianity or Islam? Isn’t that a violation of the basic law of nature?

As for your questions, I already answered them. Read Genesis chapters 2 and 3 for the Jewish Christian explanation of why humans die. In a nutshell, the sin of Adam is why humans die.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 10:23 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

The vast majority of Biblical scholars lack authentic spiritual awakening or realization and so don’t know what the hell they are talking about. Why would one want to look to them to clarify spiritual teachings? One is much better off listening to the God-realized teachers, or to learn from one’s own spiritual experiences. The desire for objective knowledge does not further one’s own realization of God. Only direct, subjective communion with Living Spirit that is God.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 10:37 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Bryan, you’re subjectively reading your personal views about reincarnation into ancient Judaism.

I’ve told you repeatedly they weren’t personal views. And even if they were, your views and N.T. Wrights are even more personal than mine are.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 10:39 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 10:41 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>And didn’t Hinduism insist on a class system more rigid and inflexible than anything in Judaism, Christianity or Islam?

Eventually yes. Initially no. But initially there was a very good reason for the so-called class system. That reasoning as with all religious beliefs eventually became corrupted and lost.

P.S. Only Christianity seperates God from His creation, the other faiths don’t particularly (i.e. in their true form their non-dualistic).




In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 10:42 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 12:44 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Lee says

>>Didn’t the early Hindus fight religious wars?

No, they did not. Unless you believe the Indian history as told by missionaries and colonial/racist/dogmatic bigots. Their wars were mostly territorial (within India), sometimes to overthrow despots. Even in their wars they followed Yuddha-Dharma, which I leave it up to you to research and learn.

Lee says

>>And didn’t Hinduism insist on a class system more rigid and inflexible than anything in Judaism, Christianity or Islam? Isn’t that a violation of the basic law of nature?

Wrong again. Talk to the ants and the bees. Also, atrophy is a natural phenomena – the class system more rigid and inflexible is a sign of such atrophy – and it is fixable. It does not in no way devalue the overall philosophy.

Anyway lets not get distracted here, please. How about answering my previous questions?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 12:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 12:49 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Lee says

>>As for your questions, I already answered them. Read Genesis chapters 2 and 3 for the Jewish Christian explanation of why humans die. In a nutshell, the sin of Adam is why humans die.No you did not answer nothing.

Let me ask this again:
>>I said
>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}
>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}
>>
>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily
>>resurrected believers when {B} happens?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 1:16 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
I did answer these earlier in this thread. The answer for Christianity and ancient Judaism was/is basically, Genesis 2 and 3.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 1:35 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 8, 2009 2:50 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
>>I said>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}
>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}

I ask>>Why non-human’s {A} die?

Lee says>>Read Genesis chapters 2 and 3 for the Jewish Christian explanation of why humans die. In a nutshell, the sin of Adam is why humans die.

It does not answer my question. Are you saying non-humans also die because of the sin of Adam? Is this what non-humans get from a just god of the true religions?

I ask>>What will happen to the bodily resurrected believers when {B} happens?

Lee says>>As for your questions, I already answered them. [...] I did answer these earlier in this thread.

But even though I have patiently repeated my questions, you somehow wont repeat your answers, other than repeating that you already answered. I am sorry Lee I must have missed it. Can you please repeat your answer for this question?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 4:27 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Agree with you IFF for – only direct, subjective communication with Living Spirit that is God. Well just my opinion of course.

In the spirit lay the germ of my body
And the spirit incorporated into my body
the sensory eyes so that l may see through them
the light of corporeal things.
And the spirit impressed into by body
sensation and thinking
and feeling and will,so that through them l can perceive corporeal things and work upon them.
In the spirit lay the germ of my body.
In my body lies the germ of the spirit
And l want to incorporate into my spirit
supersensible eyes
so that through them l can look upon the light of spirits.
And l want to impress into my spirit
wisdom and strength and love
so that spirits can work through me
and l become the self-aware instrument of their deeds.
In my body lies the germ of spirit. !Rudolf Steiner !920)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 4:47 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee,

In connection to your, saving and recreating the physical world and the people who inhabit it.

I don’t know enough about Judaism by the way, this is just my impression from this comment that’s all.

How can we save and recreate the physical world unless we all individually change our attitudes and beliefs about the world and our place/ power within it? My earlier Steiner poem comment expressess an ideology for spiritual development does it not? Every religion has similar ideologies do they not – for making the world a better place to ‘be’ and live in? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 4:51 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Laura: Agree with you IFF for – only direct, subjective communication with Living Spirit that is God.

IFF: Actually, I used the word communion, not communication. It is not a communication between one and another, but a coming together, a merging, a communion. In the bliss of Holy Spirit communion — samadhi or spiritual union — there is only One, only God.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 8, 2009 7:34 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
By the way, I liked that poem. Thanks.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 10, 2009 12:18 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 10, 2009 12:22 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
IFF, ok. Must have been reading too fast. But we can communicate through spiritual entities as these are also a way of communion with God through -being natural and being ourself. If God made us this way, and it is good enogh for God, it should be good enough for us? By doing what makes us joyful and doing what is best for us individually?

Mistakes we make are not who we really are, our own judgements about ourself + other people’s judgements and lies about us, are not who we really are either. Mistakes are part of our spiritual development making us someone much wiser than the mistakes we’ve made in the past.

Spirit cannot be rushed – and we need to learn patience so that our spiritual life begins to grow and move forward.

There is no Past and there is no Future because Spirit is Here and Now. Therefore Spirit doesn’t understand the past because it is gone and only a memory. We need to release any negative effect influence these type of memories hold over us -as often we repeat the same mistakes again and again in our own lifetime.

Spirit doesn’t understand the future either, because we have not created it yet. Spirit takes care of us now in the moment and tomorrow and tomorrow etc.

God doesn’t do fear. Fear is based in past memories and future worries and the past and future do not exsist. There is only now. Children,pets and nature are some of the greatest teachers for living in the present moment.

There is enough to go round in every situation. Their is only a belief that there is a lack. Competition with others is a belief in lack. Lack causes everything from simple arguments to all out war.

Desire for our dreams is God’s way of telling us that everything is possible. If we are a part of God, how could we desire anything separate from God. By being our authentic self, letting go of our mistakes, having great patience and being completely living in the moment – allows our hearts’ desires to manifest.

Spritual Truths are simple. If it gets too complicated it isn’t truth. Our personal Complications are based either in the past the future,or both. Therefore spiritual truth will never leave you feeling, guilty, afraid, shamed, worried,sad or hopeless. Spirit follows an easy light filled path because Spirit is Truth, Patience and the Present moment. These type of beliefs are already well known – as many of you will be aware of these Truths already.

Therefore if we can incorporate these into our own life, through many trail and errors, and notice what we are doing to ourself negatively – Spiritual communication can become available to us in what ever form required of us individually? Or a practical way for our own spiritual awareness to grow by communion through God’s spiritual helpers, who are trying to help us along our own Spiritual pathways towards self Spiritual awareness on Earth via being on Earth. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 10, 2009 2:09 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan,

Have been checking out my Steiner books again and noticing more links and references to Jesus/Christ/ resurrection/nature debates going on in the discussion. Anyway made me stop and have further rethinks..yet again. Will try to keep it short but as you know, very difficult with Steiner information…plus words can always be a source of misinterpretation!

Following from Occult Science and Occult Development (Occult meaning hidden!) Hence life appears to us to be something which here on earth is inaccessible to science, just as life is inaccessible to human knowledge so is death to the true knowledge that is attained in the supersensible worlds. In the supersensible worlds there is no death- we can die only on the Earth, in the physical world- and none of the Beings of a hierarchical rank higher than man have any knowledge of death: they only know only different states of consciouness. There is no death in the spiritual worlds, there is only change of consciouness: and the greatest fear by which man is possessed- the fear of death- cannot be felt by one who has risen into the supersensinbe worlds after death. The moment he passes through the gates of death his condition is one of intense sensibility, but he can only exist in either a clear or dimmed state of consciouness. That a human being in the supersensible world could be dead would be inconceiveable.

There is no death for any of he Beings belonging to the Hierarchies, with the one exception of Christ. But in order that a supersensible Being such as Christ should be able to pass through death, He must first have descended to the earth. And the fact of immeasurable significance in the Mystery of Golgotha is that a Being who in the realm of His own will could never have experienced death, should have descended to the earth in order to undergo an expereince connecteded inherently with man. Thereby that inner bond was created between earthly mankind and Christ, in that this Being passed through death in order to share this destiny with man. As l have already emphasised, that death was of the greatest importance, above all for the present evolutionary period of the earth. A Being of unique nature who until then was only cosmic, was united with the earth’s evolution through the Mystery of Golgotha, through Christ’s death. At the time of the Mystery of Golgotha He entered into the very process of earth’s evolution. This had not been the case before that event for He then belonged to the cosmos alone: but through the Mystery of Golgotha He descended out of the cosmos and was incorporated on earth. Since then He lives on the Earth, is united with the earth in such a way He lives within the souls of men and with them experiences life on Earth.When the Mystery of Golgotha took place the earthly body of Jesus of Nazereth was given over to the elements of the earth, and from that time onwards Christ has been united with the spiritual sphere of the earth and lives within it..For three years after the Baptism in the Jordan, Christ lived in the body of Jesus of Nazareth as a man among men of the earth. This may be called the earthly manifestation of Christ in a physical, human body. How then, does Christ manifest Himself since the time when he laid aside the physical body?

But the fact that a mighty, sublime Being descended from the spiritual worlds and dwelt for three years in a human body also includes the fact that during that time this Being himself progressed a stage further in His Development. And it is this that we have indicated in speaking of the evolution of Christ-Jehovah. Christ has reached the stage where He reveals Himself henceforth not as a human being, not through His reflection only, not through the name Jehovah, but directly. And the great difference in all the teachings and all the wisdom that have streamed into evolution of the earth since the Mystery of Golgotha, is that through his inspiration, man could gradually begin to understand all that the Mystery of Golgotha, signifies. But in that earlier time Micheal was the messenger of Johavah, the reflection of the light of Christ, he was not yet the messenger of Christ Himself. R Steiner.

There is much more information from Steiner too much for one dicussion message! The other Archangels, the companions of Micheal, could not inspire mankind in such a way as to make the Mystery comprehensible. This accounts for the divergent inspirations of the various Christian teachings. Much in these teachings was inspired by the companions of Micheal: the teachings were not inspired by Micheal himself but bear the same relation to his inspirations as do the planets to the mighty sun. Steiner.

LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 10, 2009 6:54 AM PDT

Yours Truly says:
I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I myself find the idea oof reincarnation makes sense, and it explains why some people suffer in their life more than other, however we will not know if this is true or not. This can be tricky, since some of the ideas can be confusing, and can be disturbing to some. I think we have to do our best with the time we have, to try to be Christ like in every way, and accept that we will not know for sure, while we are still trapped in the body. I think the part of the Bible that says our Faith should be like a child’s faith is very important. Do your best and let go.

God’s Blessings
Elly



In reply to an earlier post on
July 10, 2009 7:14 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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Posted on
July 10, 2009 11:13 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 10, 2009 11:13 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Hi Lee, I noticed you have posted this yesterday in the Can Judeo-Christianity stand up to exclusionary tests of logic and reason? thread:

http://www.amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdThread=Tx37E6DLPFX35ZP&displayType=tagsDetail

Lee says>>Yes, Judaeo-Christianity can stand the test. [...] people of faith MUST engage with arguments [...] The unexamined faith isn’t worth believing. [...] As if faith entails a blind faith totally devoid of reason or evidence. Well, this is NOT what the Bible and Christianity mean by faith. Reason has a lot to do with faith. Reason supports and upholds faith. Reason is what leads me TO faith in the first place.[END QUOTE]

I am still waiting for an answer from you (or Christine or others who have similar faith). You don’t want me to assume that y’all want this thread to die. Y’all must have an answer based on reason and evidence.

Here are my questions again:
>>I said>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}
>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}
>>
>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily
>>resurrected believers when {B} happens?

Let me just repeat what you’ve said in that other thread:[...] people of faith MUST engage with arguments [...] The unexamined faith isn’t worth believing.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 7:29 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya HCR,

in relation to your last comments and – one can never hope to gain the countenance of the devine.

Yes not in one lifetime anyway, which is why reincarnation makes sense to me. (However l don’t believe we come back as animals or whatever. That bit l don’t get at all. Animals apparently have one less aura level to humans. The ego part l think it is and to do with our thinking processes. Would have to check that out again! Therefore if you are spiritually human you cannot come back as an animal or plant, as these have another aura level less than us. However all are required to make the whole experience meaningful. Sorry l’m off on a tangent here.)

Ego apparently is a requirement for spiritual development and Luciferic influences are required for this process to develop as it should …eventually! Same applies for our free Will.

Am not saying this is the rule for everybody.. is only because my own life expereinces and have lots of Steiner inputs and questions and work, friendship experiences in this area. ie. makes sense to me. But everyone finds their own pathways, from whatever source they come across in their life, that brings them inner joy, hope, reasons for being, life purposes and meanings. Because we have already argeed to these life experiences before reincarnating yet again. Our human ego and free will have a major impact on our spiritual develoment.i.e sticking or moving forward.

Plus lots of paradoxes apparent in spirituality because of all the negative/positive spiritual energy apsects of our human soul/spirit developments. Basically deal with what we are being challenged with in this lifetime, and the things that bring us joy also. The here and now aspect very important for each of us individually , which will then affect others we know etc etc. etc.

Forgot to put in a nature link to spirituality before, just a poem..yet again!

CHANGESaid the sun to the moonYou cannot stay.ChangeSays moon to the waters,All is flowing.ChangeSays the field to the grass,Seed-time and harvest, Chaff and grain.You must change, Said the worm to the bud, Though not to a rose,Petals fadeThat wings may riseBorne on the wind.You are changing,Said death to the maiden, your wan faceTo memory, to beauty.Are you ready to change?Says thought to the heart,to let pass All your lifelongFor the unknown, the unbornIn the alchemyOf the world’s dream?You will change, Say the stars to the sun,Says night to the stars. Kathleen Raine.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 2:29 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 11, 2009 2:34 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello all,

Just been looking at the Steiner stuff yet again after many years by the way! Not sure what you’ll all make of this quote ..but the book opened at this page.

‘Through that which since the 16th century had become necessary for the evolution of the earth, namely the triumph of science at higher and higher levels, something which has significance also for the invisable worlds entered into the whole evolution of mankind. With the triumph of science, materialistic and agonstic sentiments of greater intensity than hitherto arose in mankind. In earlier times too there had been materialistic tendencies but not the intense materialism that had prevailed since the sixteenth century. More and more, as men passed into the spiritual worlds through the gate of death, they bore with them the outcome of their materialistic ideas on earth. After the sixteenth century more and more seeds of earthly materialism were carried over, these seeds developed in a particular way.

Christ came into the old Hebrew race and was led to His death within it. The angelic Being, who since then has been the outer form assumed by Christ, suffered an extinction of consciouness in the course of the intervening nineteen centuries as a result of the opposing materialistic forces that had been brought into the spiritual worls by materialistic human souls who had passed through the gate of death. This onset of unconsciousness in the spiritual worlds will lead to the resurrection of the Christ -consciousness in the souls of men on earth between birth and death in the twentieth century. In a certain sense it may therefore be said that from the twentieth century onwards, what has been lost by mankind in the way of consciousness will rise again for clairvoyant vision. At first only a few, and then an ever-increasing number of human beings in the twentieth century will be capable of percieving the manifestation of the Etheric Christ- that is to say, Christ in the form of an Angel. It was for the sake of humanity that there was what may be called an extinction of consciouness in the worlds immediately above our earthly world, in which Christ has been visable in the period between the mystery of Golgotha and the present day. Thus the Christ -consciouness may be united with the earthly consciouness of men from our time on into the future; for the dying of the Christ-consciouness in the sphere of the Angels in the nineteenth century signifies the resurrection of direct consciouness of Christ- that is to say, Christ’s life will be felt in the souls of men more and more as a direct personal experience from the twentieth century onwards. R Steiner

- same book as previously mentioned.

In the free being of ManThe universe is gathered up.Then in the free resolve of your heartTake your own life in hand,And you will find the World.The Spirit of the world will find itself in you. R.S



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 2:48 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Thanks Bryan for the reference for http://www.consciouslivingfoundation.org.

Will need to check this out tomorrow, as l’m tired and got 2 noisy boys to get into bed just now! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 2:58 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Alfaara, Yes can see your point re we are jesus in his physical form anyhow. Except l would call the Jesus part Christ-consciouness, as Jesus had also to develop, as does Christ due to his sacrifice for us. And as we ourself’s have to change over time. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 4:41 PM PDT

Enki says:
IF indeed a reference to reincarnation is found in the gnostic gospels, it would indicate that the IDEA of reincarnation was known to people of that day and place. And if the IDEA was known, then SOME people would have believed in it. That is all we can say based on your post so far (I’m on the first page) but that is more than I knew a minute ago. * * *Now see if you can track down a reference to reincarnation in Josephus. Supposedly, there is one. * * *



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 4:46 PM PDT

Enki says:
Communicate with spiritual entities so as to reach Gd?

Have you tried approaching Gd directly? * * *



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 8:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 11, 2009 8:24 PM PDT

Harlee says:
WAIT!!!!Hold the phone!!!No no no, please do not go reading things that will lead you astray.

There are books out there to support anyone’s view point, but that does not make it right.

Remember, the reason why other gospels are NOT in the canon, is because it is NOT the inspired word of God.

If it is not the inspired word of God it is not true. Although there may some truths to it, it is not the WHOLE TRUTH.

God is SO BIG that He created the universe and eternity, do you think He is suddenly so small that He cannot make sure that certain books are included in HIS BOOK?

God is bigger and more powerful than any man, and He would most certainly have included other scriptures if He wanted them in there.

I hope you see my point.

The reason why I beg of you not to read the other books, is because it will lead you AWAY from God, not to Him.

If you want to know about reincarnation then read about it. But don’t believe just anything you read.

But, remember all things are possible with God.

Jesus was incarnated, so we know incarnation exists. As for being re-incarnated… well… ask God what He says first.

Peace.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 8:10 PM PDT

Harlee says:
Sorry l don’t agree with you Christine but that’s okay. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and spiritual beliefs. —Laura, you are very correct.

Everyone has a right (American right) to believe what they want.

We have a human right to hold our own thoughts and beliefs.

However, God went to a lot of trouble to give you a book so you can know many mysteries. Am I saying it isnot possible? NO.

I amjust saying that God is in control and He never told us any lies in His book, so therefore we should believe in our creator.

The concept of reincarnation is completely without foundation in the Bible, which clearly tells us that we die once and then face judgment (Hebrews 9:27). The Bible never mentions people having a second chance at life or coming back as different people or animals. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, Today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43), not You will have another chance to live a life on this earth. Matthew 25:46 specifically tells us that believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go onto eternal punishment. Reincarnation has been a popular belief for thousands of years, but it has never been accepted by Christians or followers of Judaism because it is contradictory to Scripture.

The one passage that some point to as evidence for reincarnation is Matthew 17:10-12 which links John the Baptist with Elijah. However, the passage does not say that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated but that he would have fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah’s coming if the people had believed his words and thereby believed in Jesus as the Messiah (Matthew 17:12). The people specifically asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said, No, I am not (John 1:21). God has never lied, we have no reason to believe He would in this one instance.

Belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon and is a central tenet within the majority of Indian religious traditions, such as Hinduism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Many modern pagans also believe in reincarnation as do some New Age movements, along with followers of spiritism. For the Christian, however, there can be no doubt: reincarnation is unbiblical and must be rejected as false.

I feel that if the one and only book that has outlasted all the others and people are still dying for to this day says that you live once and that is all then that is the TRUTH.

Many people need to feel as though there is another chance, and I am not sayng that there is not, I am just saying that God does not speak of this. God wants us to live our life to the fullest and seek eteranl life through His son Jesus.

The eternal life you are looking for is only through Christ.:)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 8:13 PM PDT

Harlee says:
Great post!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 8:16 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 11, 2009 8:28 PM PDT

Harlee says:
An honest from the heart post, I like that.

You are correct. I pray for Laura that she does not go down the wrong path.

She is obvioulsy searching though, so our prayers can help guide her to the truth she is seeking.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 8:18 PM PDT

Harlee says:
then why did Enoch and Elijah never die, if it is appointed for man to die once?—God said they were the exception.

I believe they were raptured, like the rest of the Christians (or Christs Church) will be one day. But that is another topic altogether, so we won’t get into that here. :)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 9:55 PM PDT

Raulito says:
Laura,

Did God tell you reincarnation exists? I met a good Hindu once and I asked her why she believed in reincarnation, and she said I had dreams of my past life, where I used to be. She believed those dreams were evidence of a past life, and the possibility of future life cycles. Can you offer a better explanation.

In the New Testament teachings, we receive our life here on earth as a preparation for eternity, but we do not receive an indefinitive number of life cycles after we die. We prepare ourselves to be with God forever and ever.

Raul




In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 10:51 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 10:56 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 11:01 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 11, 2009 11:07 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 3:26 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Heather,

Think reincarnation is in the Bible in veiled forms as humanity was not yet spiritually ready for this type of information, with the exception of a few more developed souls perhaps. But humanity on the whole was not, but perhaps is now?

The following is from another book, so you may see this as being led away from God as he is contained within the Bible to some extent. From Pietro Archiati, (again based on Spiritual science from Steiner) Reincarnation in Modern Life, and discusses – ‘does reincarnation have any relevance to our time, and is it compatible with the teachings of Christianity?

‘According to Rudlof Steiner it was actually the task of Christ, initially, to withhold from humanity the ancient knowledge of reincarnation for a while. During these 2000 years of Christianity the West has indeed lost the pre-Christian consciousness of reincarnation – and this is due to the very deed of Christ! For the Christ came to give humanity the chance of forgetting all they once knew by virtue of the ancient atavistic clairvoyance they all possessed. Why? Because the type of consciousness of reincarnation that people had before Christ had not arisen of their own individual thought process, and was not their own independantly aquired knowledge, but was a kind of echo, the last and usually not very well-interpreted remainder of the ancient automatic atavistic clairvoyance. We can see this in the fact that the apostles were not actually clear about what their question comprised.

John the Baptist also does not know that he is Elias, as is plainly reported in the Gospels. For when askedAre you Elias? he answers ,No, l am not (John 1:21). His consciouness of reincarnation has been eclipsed, and he no longer knows who he was in his previous life – which does not mean that he was actually Elias.

Christ’s ministry extinquished the consciosness of reincarnation in its ancient form because this lacked the two dimensions that are of decisive importance for Christian evolution, meaning the evolution of the free ego, namely the individual and the universal dimension.

All the ancient forms of a consciouness of reincarnation have thus to be lost so that a new consciousness of reincarnation can arise, the consciousness that all human beings belong together as members of a single organism. And just as we needed the first half of evolution to evolve away from one another, to become independant beings, each one an individual in him or herself, we now need the second half with all its incarnations to grow together again, to become one organism together, without losing the consciousness of our individuality in the process.

Same factors above could also be applied to every type of Religion as well, not just Christianity, in relation to their shared evolvement? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 7:06 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
[Deleted by Amazon on July 19, 2009 2:04 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 7:17 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Heather, It IS of course fine to believe what you want to have Faith in as you mentioned. I’m only saying there is also another ways of looking at things within ourself, others and the world. I’m not saying my beliefs are true for everyone – they just happen to be my personal true ones,that make sense to me personally in this lifetime, through my many expereinces.

As to reincarnation this is a much larger concept of Christ and his Being than is, or could be provided in the Bible.

I know Christ is very,very important and when younger could not get my head around the concept that we were all sinners and failures if we did not follow the Bible’s words to the letter. i.e God would punnish us.(from Catholic chuch attendances) I have never been able to believe this of God. Hence my investigations started into other Religions l have to say. Looking for answers. Eventually l came across Steiners work which has allowed me to welcome back the Christ influence back into my life, which l had earlier rejected as it didn’t make sense to me. The Bible is a very important book of course but from my personal veiwpoint only a starting point for our spiritual paths. My present beliefs and your comment, the eternal life you are looking for is only through Christ – still stands for me, well l beleive it does, but also includes reincarnation and the spirituality energy of everything else within the Universe. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 7:36 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Raul, I have never had the pleasure of talking to God directly. I have however spoken to family and friends that have passed over, but is usually about something in my life that l am struggling to cope with. You cannot direct the conversations as they are just there before you have time to think of any self directed questions. Have had numerous Angelic communications whilst doing or recieving reflexology sessions or healing, with my Higher Self intuitions and guidance. Have never seen any of my past reincarnation lifetimes as yet. However know immediately when l have meet someone before from another life. I can recognise them at first sight. These people always have a special lesson for me here in this lifetime.

As to your last comment, receiving our life here on earth as a preparation for eternity… we are never parted from God in the first place, is my view, as we are all as one, and he is a part of us. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 7:58 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello HCR, I believe that Atlantis existed. Have not mentioned Hilter in my comments. l have seen the Tiantai Buddhist response to Hilter..but will have to take another look at it now. LSPS. Steiner has a different slant on Karma as well by the way. It is not a punnishment for past behaviours but an accepted individual spiritual development process from pre birth spiritual states- that we agree to and acts as our future teaching aids. He also says that the process of Karma will die out through time, as our spiritual consciousness grows.

LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 8:00 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 8:06 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello again HCR, Yes that was what l was trying to say.

Not sure of New Age reincarnation part though – we will just have to wait and see, have patience and put our faith in God that it will all work out as it suppost to eventually. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 8:29 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
HCR hello again,

Yes know facial reflexology. My passion reflexology, which is l believe part of my personal spiritual gifts to others? Is it the same for you? Learnt reflexology in 2002 but did further training in 2007, as the 2002 training didn’t give me the answers l needed i.e why and how it works and changes to feet etc etc.

Have you learnt about the Chinese 5 Elements + Meridian theories aswell? Only learnt about these parts 2 years ago and makes the world and people make sense to me now. Truely amazing!! Helps to make people feel much better in themself don’t you think? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 8:40 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 9:15 AM PDT

Raulito says:
Laura,We are never parted from God in the first place, is my view, as we all as one, and he is a part of us.

Did God tell you that? I ask you because Jesus said the opposite, that man is separated from God and needs to be saved from God, and man cannot save himself.

Raul



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 10:09 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Laura

Will you do my feet?? Please??

LOL

Where I am now living there is not a reflexologist for at least 100 miles



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 10:41 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 10:43 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 10:57 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA

You said Steiner hs a different slant on Karma, it is not a punnishment,KARMA one of my favorite Subjects! Most do not understand What Karma is ? and How it Works? What is the Purpose, And how it is controlled

First of all There is NO such thing as GOOD or BAD KARMA…… There is only KARMA! Cause and EFFECTKARMA is DIVINE ,Karma governs the Level of Refinement of the SOUL(effect) in the FLESH(cause)KARMA is always kept in balance, and keeps balance,The ammount Karma earned through the FLESH, is measured out,equally as to the LEVEL of Conciousness of SAID SOUL INCARNATE, requires explanationYou said Steiner yaada yaada That we agree to!.. ME The SOUL has the option to agree or disagree to the INCARNATIONThe Karma carried forth from the Last Lifetime incarnate is posted to the Next Life, the SOUL in viewing that Lifetimehas the Option, to incarnate or not,,, The Soul still Grows while not Incarnate but makes the MOST GAINS onlywhile in the FLESH, The SOUL INCREASES iT, The real YOU, and GOD…..while in the FLESHKARMA determines the RATE of INCREASE and is Always in exact BALANCE with the LEVEL of CONCIOUSNESS,SPIRITAttained…You said STeiner ,The process of KARMA will DIE OUT! as our Spiritual conciousness Grows!STeiner is Partially correct only I havent read his stuff, hopefully you have him in contextThe process of KARMA will not/can not EVER die OUT, JUST CHANGE It is Divine and Ordained by GOD not some New Age Myth!KARMA REGULATES GODS GLORY and YOURS ALSO ,The GLORIFICATION process or being Made Perfect in the Fleshis controlled by KARMA , LEVEL of SPIRIT and LEVEL of REFINEMENT are AlwaYS IN balanceKarma and the LAW go together!WHAT DOES HAPPEN is Karma will be eventually Be Balanced as their comes a time where Karma has served GODS purpose!The SOUL has PURPOSED and is no longer SUBJECT to the Law of Karma, All incarnationsfrom that POINT are GOVERNED by INSTANT KARMA Yes its TRUE All masters Incarnate are subject to INSTANT KARMANo longer working off Past Life Stuff, Instant Karma raises the Awarness Level from Soul Level to the Concious Awarness LevelIt is at this POINT that ONE knows FOR SURE WHO ONE REALLY IS, Karma has completed its Perfect Taskbut of course KARMA only works through REINCARNATION,If you dont Reincarnate well DONT WORRY about Karma!!LOLPeace ALLFAARAA



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 11:08 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 11:10 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
ALFAARA: First of all There is NO such thing as GOOD or BAD KARMA.

IFF: For the purposes of discussion, we can say that good karma is that karma which promotes happiness, while bad karma is that karma which promotes suffering.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 11:14 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURAHave you ever done or had done your Numerology?I wonder if you are aware at what Level you are Incarnating and experiencing Karma>>From reading Your Words I would put you at a 7 most Christians are Incarnating and Experiencing at the 4 level, Life Path Wise…That is why Most Christians cannot/do not relate to Karma, Reincarnation,Angels ETCHave You come to Realize what your HIGHER SELF is Yet? and WHO/WHAT YOU really ARE?CONCIOUSNESS is EARNED through INCARNATIONYou said We are all as One, He is a Part of us,….. ONE YES, but turn it around, WE are PART of HIM ,Directlyor Indirectly Through JesusWhat do you think??



Posted on
July 12, 2009 11:19 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 11:19 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
IFFKarma is neither good or Bad these are words Reasonable to Suit Ones understanding LevelAs There is NO GOOD OR EVIL, Karma does not Reward someone for GOOD ACTS,……Yet GOOD ACTS Randomly, reduce Karma…The main purpose of any Incarnation is to Reduce or Balance KARMA,promoting GROWTH of the SOUL INCARNATE,



Posted on
July 12, 2009 11:21 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 11:24 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HOVCasey again??As I said in an earlier Post There is no Good Karma, nor Bad Karma, ONLY KARMABut there is NO Karma..All of Us are Experiencing at Different Levels of Conciousness No Paths are AlikeYou me IFF, LAURA ,will all have Different Understanding of SPIRITUAL Things based upon the LEVELof our Attained Spirituallity or GROWTH……..




In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 11:27 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 12:20 PM PDT

A Customer says:
Bump



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 2:05 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya HRT, Great to find another soul who thinks along the same lines as myself. l also think the Tao has the best answers. Haven’t read Hatcher translation of the tao te ching yet, but l will do and have been researching TCM because it interests me so much because of the links. Am still learning this as it is complicated – but at the same time simple, if you know what l mean.I have learnt so much about my negative memories, mental attitudes and emotional gunk that l carry around with me and have been releasing through reflexology sessions. This enables me to disern it in others aswell, there are loads of similaries. Not the details obviously as we are all unique energy beings. But the effects on self-empowerment and acceptance are amazing don’t you think? Basically we find ways to punnish ourself by not relasing these type of energies. Do you think the same about this? Everything is linked of course as you pointed out.

All the elements have a knock on effect but presently l am trying to release more energy from my control cycle of Fire, Metal and Water which is too strong and has caused my diabetic condition. However my insulin intakes have been much reduced through reflexology. I am definately more Earth type than other elements and Wood affects come from anger at myself and anger at my mother for committing suicide when l was 13 – aswell as all other angers in my life and at myself. Guilt and grief repressed for years but diabetes commenced just a few months after her death. Sorry l’m rambling…and people are going to say we need to start a reflexology discussion and not discuss on the reincarnation discussion! What do you reckon? Have thought about doing reflexology discussion before but got to tied up in this one, which is also very important to me. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 2:21 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Raul, Yes we were separated, but the very fact of Jesus/Christ sacrifice altered this pattern because we have been separated from God and needed to be saved by God before. However l believe now we can, and this is a gift fromm God through the Jesus/Christ influences.

It is not just humanity evolving spiritually but also the spritual realms connected to the Earth also evolving. A type of Yin and Yang effect but on a massive scale. Each are inseparble, yet separate but co-existing in a partnership of co-operation and dependancy. Yet more spiritual parodoxes that contain great truths l personally believe. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 2:25 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Alfaara, l would if l could! Keep looking and asking for angelic assistance and a reflexologist will appear in your life for sure. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 2:37 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello again Alfaara, Just read more of the messages and HRT has supplied a way for you to recieve reflexology. Great.

Re Steiner and Karma questions, have read it recently again in one of my Steiner books. Will forward exactly what he said. But really tired tonight and needing my bed just now. Tomorrow l promise. LS

ps. Do Spiritual laws and karma not also need to develop and change as we do?? Otherwise it is all one-sided is it not?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 3:21 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 12, 2009 3:25 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 13, 2009 10:24 AM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Raul says

>>Can you offer a better explanation.

Here is my earlier post from Page 25:

http://www.amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdMsgNo=603&cdPage=25&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx2GQ6JC7VUC0T8&displayType=tagsDetail&cdMsgID=Mx781F5I5I5Q39#Mx781F5I5I5Q39



Posted on
July 13, 2009 11:47 AM PDT

karen carpenter says:
Read up on the gnostics. The first council of Nicea voted it all out.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 13, 2009 11:55 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 13, 2009 12:13 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Laura says>>Think reincarnation is in the Bible in veiled forms as humanity was not yet spiritually ready for this type of information, with the exception of a few more developed souls perhaps. But humanity on the whole was not, but perhaps is now?

So according to you humanity = closed minded humans who follow the desert dogmas. Because all other religions seem to have some knowledge about reincarnation. Ancient Hindus fully explored and clearly documented it. Are you saying they were not part of this humanity?

Laura says>>few more developed souls

i.e., billions of Indians and other Asians, and millions of other people who reject the desert dogmas and accept karma, reincarnation etc – i.e., huge number of people in the world according to you is few more developed souls.

Laura says>>[...] humanity was not yet spiritually ready [...] humanity on the whole was not, but perhaps is now?

The first documentation of reincarnation comes from several thousand years ago (at least 2800 years ago); the knowledge itself is probably much older. Do you even know what you are saying here?

According to you humanity = closed minded humans who are now ready… perhaps… because:it was actually the task of Christ, initially, to withhold from humanity the ancient knowledge of reincarnation for a while.

Wow! This true god, his messiah’s and the believers are quite mysterious indeed…



Posted on
July 13, 2009 12:18 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Fascinating



In reply to an earlier post on
July 13, 2009 2:41 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
HRT, thanks I will go a hunting for your Mind forum, but not very technically minded so might take me a while to find it.

My brother is an astrologist so have my birth chart already, which l’ve not looked at recently. Can forward my birth details if you want them. Taurus with Libra rising.

I am Tiger/Rooster in Chinese astrology.I have stopped remembering my dreams a few months ago. My Korean friend says this is a good sign that my energies are balancing out.( she is also a reflexologist)

Yes juvenile diabetic and know this is much harder to change… but won’t stop me from trying. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 13, 2009 3:28 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 13, 2009 3:32 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya DogmaToxin,

Spiriual truths are apparently full of paradoxes remember.

It is very difficult to pick out the Steiner info in a shorten version for a post. Would have to type in the whole book! Have obviously missed important information out, sorry. Also forgot a really important aspect of Steiner’s work,which l can’t find now but read recently.

Think these were the main points of it. That Steiners antrophosophical aims were directed mainly at the Western world’s veiws about Christianity and wanted to show people in the West another way of looking at Christianity. Think that was the jist of it. He knew the importance of Karma and reincarnation , which is apparent in Eastern religions and wanted to expand on this realm to include Christ and what he viewed as the true mystery of Golgotha and it’s importance for all of hummanity.(East and West.) Many meditations are included within his work because of it’s importance to soul development. The few developed souls was my wording l think, so hence mistake! Perhaps few people was in relation to people in Christs lifetime. And also humanity’s deveopment as a whole has also to be considered. Wasn’t until after Christ’s death that individual spiritual development became more available to everyone. This was also to allow Luciferic influences to gather strength thus allowing freedom of individual thought -which contains both positive and negative sides of course -but also allows for greater soul development. Initiating rituals are also mentioned frequently in Steiners work and their importance often missing from Western society. LS

ps. Alfaara did reply but then my computor cut out! Will post details to your Karma questions again tomorrow!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 13, 2009 5:41 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 13, 2009 5:44 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 6:50 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
HRT, Thanks got it now and will check out as soon as l can. LS

ALFAARA, answered your questions re Karma and took me ages to get it right. Unfortuunately my system not connected again and when l fixed it yet again the information l supplied is again lost! Think someone is trying to tell me something here..ie. not putting correct info in perhaps? Will try again later today, maybe third time lucky! LS

PLUS – just found the answer to my initial question in a Steiner book! Am not very happy with the answer either by the way, as some others won’t be either. Will put in later as got to go out now! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 9:09 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HOV>>>I say again there is Good and Evil…HOV HOV HOV Where YOU exist there is no good or evil……Good and Evil exist and can only be Experienced through the FLESH, Part of the reason YOU are Incarnate IS to Experience EVILCause ,through EVIL comes GOODAs GOD commanded Lite to SHINE out of DARKNESSso shall GOOD come out from EVILEVIL is Your teacher /schoolmaster that will bring You unto GODAs ALL in the FLESH are being made PERFECT as the BIBLE says..Do YOU than think that it is YOUR FLESH that is being MADE PERFECT??Do You think that it is YOUR FLESH that GLORIES?Please dont quote me Casey! I am well aware about GENES being Manipulated yaada yaadaway before HE put it in WRITING<<<It is through YOUR refinement in the FLESH that YOU and GOD are GLORIFIED Together!This how the ARCHITECHT, BUILDS the KINGDOM,DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT YOU (COLLECTIVELY) ARE THE ‘BUILDERSOF HEAVEN AND EARTH,AND ALL THE CELESTIAL REALM..IT is only in the FLESH where EVIL can EXIST and be EXPERIENCED…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 9:24 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HOV…>>That puts SELF GLORY above giving ALL GLORY TO GOD!!You have said it ,but do you understand it??This was ISRAEL, the scripture You are quoting is to ISRAEL well A lot of ITSELF GLORY through the FLESH,They were never supposed to GIVE all the GLORY to GOD,Neither are YOU, if you are Christian, Paul speaks of being GLORIFIED TOGETHERThat is why both HOLY SPIRIT and SOUL exist within the FLESH, and the GLORY or FRUITis STORED IN JESUS Barn…..ABOVE… where IT is not SUBJECT to GUESS WHO>>ISRAEL stored their GLORY in their HOUSES spread throughout the sons,daughters,mothers etc,etc, each LAYING UPas Scripture verifys…But GLORY stored on EARTH is sublect to well YOU KNOW… This is mention in the PARABLE About the STRONGER MAN breaking into a Strong Mans House and Spoiling His GOODS..ISRAEL was all about self GLORY! That is why THEY were HERE!And after ALL the BIBLE verifys that JESUS is the GLORY OF ISRAELWhat do you think that MEANS?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 10:03 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 10:09 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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July 14, 2009 10:48 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Alfaara/Hov,

Disagree on the evil thing.

What exists here is wrongfulness, or bad choices, but for the most part no evil.

Sometimes an evil spirit can interact with this plane but only with our help or through our ignorance (which might be viewed as the same thing0.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 12:32 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

Dude,,, I am the one who said NO EVIL everyone disagreed with ME<W#E are the EVIL!!I said Evil or Bad can only be experienced in the FLESHBad choices come from poor excercising of ones free will allowing KARMA to come into playBut all this STUFF only happens in the FLESH no??



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 12:34 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

BUT WE ARE ALSO THE GOOD!so are we EVIL or DIVINE?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 12:40 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HOV

You misunderstand I didnt say you put self glory above glory to godThat was ISRAEL,I hold you ON HIgH and Respect YOU and your POSTSI would not insult YOU or JUDGE YOUSlippage?OK I am Confused wear you down? I happen to think That you are one of my favorite people to read on AMAZONso what GIVES, mabey YOU should RE READ my postit seems that you are thinking I said something to YOU that I said about ISRAELThan mabey you will TAKE BACK your POST? please!and explain Slippage please?




In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 1:19 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 14, 2009 1:22 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>But all this STUFF only happens in the FLESH no??

Not so sure on that…..(well ‘karma’ yes……fighting evil on the other hand is open to debate).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 1:21 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
we are god (small g)……loosely speaking…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 1:32 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
HOV

Hopefully you have REread my Post and see Clearly!

I said neither are YOU if you are Christian the YOU is a COLLECTIVE not individually YOU

NO I never took nor read Course in Miracles but have had friends that have!

The BIBLE says there is SIN>>>Is SIN EVIL? Are they the SAME thing?
Where there is NO SIN< there is NO Forgiveness

I was speaking of The Eternal Realms where there is no Evil
If one has a SOUL that is where it would exist, no?

I guess what I am saying as I always have said ?
are You the Soul First or are You the FLESH?
Semantics? Me thinks not, tomfoolery ? Only to those without understanding,If you are the flesh than as you said One would expect natural man intellects and artificial discernment
but true spiritual discernment can only come through Spirit, no?

Was/is there really an refloxology location 17 miles from my home?? I was told the nearest was in Dallas about 80 miles away



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 2:03 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Third time lucky l hope Alfaara re karma enquiries, Sorry didn’t put karma information down correctly but l did in a way if that makes sense? Been looking it up again from various Steiner books,so here goes.

What l meant to say was that the karma spiritual development/ability will also evolve over time due to various physical and spiritual developments in humanity,factors which l’ll TRY to explain if l can here. What humanity does also has an affect within the spiritual realms although in a very different context because there is no physical senses or materialism within spiritual realms at all. Yet humanities input is also required for spiritual growth, and if we have the possibility of growing spiritually then our actions affect the spiritual wholeness. As we are as one , but coming from different forums of being. Without having studied Steiners other works – trying to summarise his work is very difficult in deed!From The Spiritual Guideance of Man, RS – for the scope of his work and with my difficulty explaining!

Behind the outer events of human history spiritual forces have guided human destinies. In this book Rudolf Steiner portrays the spiritual leadership of ancient India, Egypt and Greece. He explains how he guidance of humanity later came under the beneficent influence of Christ, as well as angelic beings working for both good and ill.

After the turning point of 1250 A.D (don’t ask me why this date as would have to go searching again), a modern form of estoric spirituality arose to shape human development. Now our century witnesses a revival of spiritual influences from ancient Egypt.

Revised by Steiner for publication, these three lectures also treat secrets of the connection between early stages of childhood and the Christ being, and the role of the unborn child in choosing its parents and horoscope.

The Austrian- born R S (1861-1925) was a well-published scientific, literary, and philosophical scholar, when just after the turn of the century he suprised his academic collegues by turning towards the esoteric spirituality of the Theosophical Society. In 1913 he founded the independant movement, Anthroposophy, under the aegis of which he continued research for the renewal of twentieth century society out of his trained seership.

Steiner’s multi-faceted genius has led to radically new, holistic approaches in medicine, science, education (Wardorf schools), special education, religion, philosophy, economics, history,agriculture (Bio-Dynamic method), architechture, drama, the new art of eurythmy and other fields.(PS Eurythmy is a form of movement including vowel and breathing techniques which allow spiritual energy to flow more freely and can be done alone, or in a large group, which l find to be an totally amazing experience by the way!)Right that’s the background of Steiner whom l obviously admire greatly, so am biased through my life expereinces within Steiner organisations and his associated work areas.

Right back to Karma.

One of the finest, most highly attenuated substances within the reach of human facilities is called Akasha. The manifestations of beings and of phenomena in the Akasha are the most delicate and ethereal of any that are accessible to man. What a man aquires in the way of occult knowledge lives not only in his soul but is inscribed into the Akasha substance of the world. When we make a thought of occult science it comes alive in our souls, it is at once inscribed into the Akasha-substance and this is of significance for the general evoloution of the world. For no being in the whole world other than man is able to make in the Akasha-substance the inscriptions that can be called by the name Occult Science.

It is important to bear in mind one characteristic feature of the Akasha-substance, namely that in the spiritual world between death and new birth, man lives in this substance, just as here on the earth he lives in the atmosphere.

Man’s evolution on earth advances in stages from one civilisation-epoch to another:; during these successive epochs the souls of men dwell, as individualities, in bodies belonging to the several civilisations. All the souls here this evening were incarnated in bodies that belonged to earlier periods of culture. Each individual soul advances in accordance with karma it has built up for itself.

As well as this evolution of individual souls which depends upon which karma, we must recognise the evolution of mankind as a whole which advances from epoch to epoch. A Grecian body, an Egyptian, Chaldean, ancient Persia or ancient Indian body was, in the finer parts of its structure, quite different from one of the present age. Right going to stop there because l need a break. Will try to get back on later to explain Steiner answer to reincarnation in relation to the Bible.. the answer that l’m not keen on by the way! Have also got information relating to the Father and Son being related to reincarnation and karma or gifts of Grace from God (reincarnation)and from his son Christ( karma).. ..well according to Steiner and why it is this way. If we remember that old saying, if you have never experinced pain (emotional) then you can never experience true happiness. Think that’s how it goes!I think this helps me to understand spiritual pathways and karma better with all it’s paradoxes. We need both types of expereinces, positive and negative, to hopefully appreiciate life to the full, and have the oppertunity to attain our own wisdom. Same applies to Steiners Spiritual forces being within the earth and of the earth, and even off the earth. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 2:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 14, 2009 2:26 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
We contain both good and evil influences because in the physical world be require both aspects of teachings perhaps because we are eternally striving towards higher wisdoms hopefully. Through our self and with guidance from above. We need both types of expereinces in our life to achieve eventual genuine understanding or ourself and therefore of the world.. and in order to reach the divine, which is what we all ultimately desire? Basically we can be all three! Good, evil and eventually divine but there are many processes to undergo on the way. Or influences of the father, son and the holy spirit. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 4:06 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee,The vast majority of Biblical scholars lack authentic spiritual awakening or realization and so don’t know what the hell they are talking about. Why would one want to look to them to clarify spiritual teachings? One is much better off listening to the God-realized teachers, or to learn from one’s own spiritual experiences. The desire for objective knowledge does not further one’s own realization of God. Only direct, subjective communion with Living Spirit that is God.

LEE: If you wanted to know what the ancient Greek Stoics believed, would you ask your plumber? Or would you ask a professor ancient history who specialized in ancient philosophical schools?

Well, if I want to know and understand what historic Judaism and Christianity taught, I consult the works of scholars who have to be objective in order to ACCURATELY understand their topic (they aren’t always objective, but the discipline itself strives for it). This is especially critical with a faith like Christianity, whose central belief/claim/tenet hinges upon an event in recorded history. Christianity was never designed to be the kind of subjective, inclusive, believe-whatever-you-want-because-truth-is-relative faith you guys think it is. In Christianity it matters a great deal WHAT you believe. The Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds weren’t the result of a group of bored bishops with nothing better to do.

Christianity teaches that God can be known in a variety of ways, of which direct spiritual communion is one. But God’s greatest self-disclosure, the way he can ultimately be known best, is via his incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth. If you want to REALLY know God you have to get to know JESUS, since Jesus is God’s deliberate selkf-disclosure to people.

Christianity isn’t abstract. Its personal. God isn’t some vague, nebulous force out there. He is a personal being.

Why anyone would even WANT to be reincarnated again and again, hoping, if you’re an orthodox Hindu, that you come back as a higher life-form, rather than a lower one? You don’t have to die and have your soul reincarnated in multiple bodies over and over. Jesus died once and was resurrected. That’s enough.

Christianity deals with concrete things, not hazy spiritual abstractions. It doesn’t rely for the inculcation of Truth upon anything as subjective and potentially misleading as feelings or emotions-despite what many of my well-meaning Charismatic Christian brothers and sisters would say. Christianity says that the world and physical creation matter, that you can’t separate body and soul and expect to have a complete person, that Jesus died and was physically resurrected by God in order to fix what was broken in creation. Christianity is clear that neither humans nor creation are a part of God, because he is separate and apart from that which he created.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 4:12 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
DOGMATOXIN: I ask>>What will happen to the bodily resurrected believers when {B} happens?Lee says>>As for your questions, I already answered them. [...] I did answer these earlier in this thread.But even though I have patiently repeated my questions, you somehow wont repeat your answers, other than repeating that you already answered. I am sorry Lee I must have missed it. Can you please repeat your answer for this question?

LEE: Okay now I think I understand what you were asking. Your initial wording was unclear. Genesis doesn’t go into great detail, but apparently the death of any and all living things was a result of Adam’s sin. Paul seems to imply this in Romans chapter 8:18-24:I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The CREATION waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the CREATION WAS SUBJECTED TO FRUSTRATION, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the CREATION ITSELF will be LIBERATED FROM ITS BONDAGE TO DECAY and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that the WHOLE CREATION has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 4:34 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Alfaara, Yes l did use try numerology years ago but can’t remember what l was now.

My Higher self l think is part of my spiritual being who knows everything in relation to myself and my past, present and future influences of my own personal karma making. The truest spiritual evolved part of my humanity but also links to the cosmos aswell. However l think that God , Christ and Spiritual realms or beings are also a requiremnt to spiritual growth or of becoming open. Therefore Christ is of supreme importance to humanitys destiny, either directly or indirectly as part of our (being everyone’s ) opportunity for spiritual growth. This can be now, or other further opportunities held in our future lives, as one of God’s graces. All ties up with true freedom and choices available to humanity now of course, and apparently available to everyone now.

Do you think l/ we could also now correct our karma in the same life now, say if we are spiritualy aware or open? I am hoping this has happened for me, surrounding my mother of course. I punnished myself to the degree of having severe depression, and experienced the rejection of my own child, because he was too young to understand what was going on, and l made the process last a whole year, like my mother also. Also attempted suicide. So l experinced things as they would have affected her, if you know what l mean, and literally in the physical form. Like being the living dead by the way, and absolutely nothing could bring me any joy or pleasure as l was so full of self hate. Am also therefore hoping in Steiners evoling karma affects at a very personal level, which would then allow me to perhaps resolve my ill karma in this life?? Although this has never been possible before! Or am l just kidding myself? What do you think?Have had meetings with my spiritual mother by the way, which were only possible after l had managed to turn round my own thinking and to approach it from another higher perspective. Can see her suicide as being of a supreme love now, in order that l may become more spiritualy aware in trying to deal with her death in this lifetime -and not just feel that she didn’t love me enough. Achieved self learning and with others help, which expanded my questions to why she had done it? We had made this pre birth agreement and she did confirm this for me. Am hoping you can agree on this -but even if you don’t, about the karma, that’s okay. It was the answer l required, to finally find and to be open again to happiness within my own life. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 4:57 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURAWhat ever feels most correct usually IS,No one can tell you what is or what should be,no one is taking the exact same path to GOD as You are!As to Karma, only the master levels the 11,s 22.s and the 33,s incarnate with no PREVIOUS KarmaAt this level the SOUL has finished off Karma at the 9 level and if decides to serve GOD and the PLANETcontinues incarnating. Since karma has been worked off so to speak in the last or 9 incarnationthere is no karma left to work off during ones earthly lifetime,So truly one can do GODS work>>>As one of three master levels free of past karma.. However instant karma is something to behold…

The key to working off karma in ones current lifetime is KNOWING where their Karma Lies,Through numerology determining where Karma lies, is in the numbers which are missingits an addition process kind of in depth to explain here..

A great book is Numerology and the Divine Triangle I would have to look up the Author…

Allfaaraa



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 5:01 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

APPLAUSE, They are sharpening the STAKE! and heating the FIRE! small g!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 5:35 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 14, 2009 5:35 PM PDT

Raulito says:
Laura,

What is your number reason for believing in reincarnation? I do have a question for you. Once you die, if you are still permitted by God to keep your person-personality, why is it absolutely necessary for you to believe in reincarnation? what exactly is at stake here?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 6:51 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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July 14, 2009 6:55 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 7:24 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
33

Now that is a number I know nothing about

So have you reread my post and forgiven me?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 7:38 PM PDT

Raulito says:
Hover,

Ok, and it is not the personality that persists but personality was more the temporary conditions of a lifetime.. Yes, that is partly true. Will you and I have the same personality in Heaven? We may have our own individuality, but how about having the same personality?

Raul



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 8:15 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: Well, if I want to know and understand what historic Judaism and Christianity taught, I consult the works of scholars who have to be objective in order to ACCURATELY understand their topic (they aren’t always objective, but the discipline itself strives for it).

IFF: Spiritual truth is not about accumulating intellectual knowledge. That has its place and may be of value, but if you want to know God, then look within. Find God within. And look to those who have realized God, not just thousands of years ago, but especially those God-realized persons who are alive now, because they can be of most help.

Lee: This is especially critical with a faith like Christianity, whose central belief/claim/tenet hinges upon an event in recorded history.

IFF: What do beliefs, which are of the mind, have to do with that all-encompassing love that comes from God, which can only be known in ecstatic union with the Divine Spirit? Do you want to fill head with a bunch of information, or do you want to know God directly?

Lee: Christianity teaches that God can be known in a variety of ways, of which direct spiritual communion is one.

IFF: Good, then commune with God. Do you know how to do that? Have you experienced God directly?

Lee: If you want to REALLY know God you have to get to know JESUS, since Jesus is God’s deliberate selkf-disclosure to people.

IFF: You can’t know Jesus directly because he no longer walks this earth. He told his followers that he would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit when he was gone. Jesus is long gone, so we now should receive the Holy Spirit of God in sacred meditation, as Jesus counseled.

Lee: Why anyone would even WANT to be reincarnated again and again, hoping, if you’re an orthodox Hindu, that you come back as a higher life-form, rather than a lower one?

IFF: You shouldn’t. That’s the purpose of enlightenment or salvation — to get off the wheel of karma, the cycle of reincarnation, into eternal freedom and your immortal destiny.

Lee: Christianity deals with concrete things, not hazy spiritual abstractions.

IFF: There’s nothing hazy or abstract about God communion. It is tangible and ecstatic, and it changes one’s sense of reality.

Lee: Christianity says… that you can’t separate body and soul and expect to have a complete person…

IFF: I notice you didn’t say that Christ says… because Christ never said anything like this. If Christianity teaches this, then it is wrong. You are not a body. You are spirit.

Lee: Christianity is clear that neither humans nor creation are a part of God, because he is separate and apart from that which he created.

IFF: Again, more foolish from a myth-bound religion that does not reflect what Jesus actually taught. Jesus said, I and my Father are one. Jesus did not say, I and my Father are one…. and you’re not! Jesus pointed the way for us to follow.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 14, 2009 8:53 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 1:22 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 15, 2009 1:34 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Alfaara + HRC

Alfaara just to say l can totally agree with you on , It is only in the flesh where evil can exist and be experienced comments. Absolutely brilliant insight, and agree to the other comments too except the Cacey ones to HRT. Maybe a bit too judgemental here perhaps? HRC – think you are free to access your own spiritual truths from whatever form they take. If one of your great passions is Cacye’s work, then so it is, as this is your current choice… and is surley contained within your own individual, unique spiritual pathway. Who can see at the eventual outcome, except for you? But I also believe that we can easily become spiritualy stuck within our own thinking, which can have positive or negative results for us… need to develop actual expereinces of his written work being applied within your own life experiences. Am thinking that you may already have done this…which is why he is one of your passions in the first place? LS

However have not read his work at all, well l don’t think l have! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 2:11 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Raul Diaz, my number one reason for believing in reincarnation is that it makes me happier within myself and can find hope for others and the unhappy state of the world at the moment. Hope and Faith in and for all of humanity is my answer.

Took me a long time to accept reincarnation by the way, as it does appear at first to be a very scary concept. But utimately it can allow for loss of fear about dying, because we can hopefully understand ourself better and our negative actions affect on others in the present lifetime. Therefore can lead to eventually deveolp into the reality of no fears, no regrets about the past, no worries about the future..just acceptance of the way our life has turned out because this is the way it was meant to be for us and the people contained within our life. There is nothing at stake really just our happiness and joy within our present life, becaue this is where our focus should be. There will be plenty of other opportunities to accept our own spiritual lessons/development in the future, if we cannot accept reincarnation and karma in this present life. God’s grace is so magnificent.

Of course if there is no afterlife at all, or just the one chance to getting it right… this still does not matter to me, because l have learnt to be content within my own lifetime….. and am therefore a much happier being after having believed in karma and reincarnation, and have more to give to others. Even if it is totally all fanciful imaginary thinking and reasoning, it still makes perfect sense to me here and now. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 3:01 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 15, 2009 3:06 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello again Alfaara, Have not heard of the numbering system your talking about, but do believe l know where my present karma is coming from – but just within this lifetime experience. And it has taken me years to do that!For me the Higher Self is our own Spiritual or Cosmic potential of the Divine being acted out on the Earth.

Our second self containing all the good potential within us. This allows for self love, self understanding and self wisdom and intuition. This is then reflected towards others in our life, even strangers, and the whole world affect. Therefore our higher self must also have access to the Akasha Records… and could be viewed as containing all our own individual spiritual existance + others whom we come into contact with, and its expression whilst we are on Earth. Our Cosmic link to the Divine. It is our Cosmic link to the Divine and can be experienced in it’s different forms by everyone. Was reflecting on a better way to describe my Higher Self and what it means to me, and hope l will manage to express it now. This can be linked into all my above reasoning.

Have noticed that l don’t have to think or intellectulise anything as my higher self expresses itself through me. Just comes through when l am focused on myself seeking answers, or on another person.

These type of experiences and comments are always with fully loving expressions. They are not coming from my normal human self. I know what to say before l have had time to think anything and recieve immediately the right answer or question from other people. This then allows me to speak further again but without the normal thinking processes being used. Does this make sense?I also speak differently, according to my son, with a deeper or lower tone of voice. There is also a buzzing affect within me and around my aura, like 2 magnets trying to be pushed together. These affects have lesened over time, perhaps because l am more used to it now? I never know when it’s going to occur it just happens, like channelling. I don’t know what l’m going to say until l’ve said it! Sometimes it is just a few, inside my head comments, but other times it can last for 15 minute converstaions. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 8:35 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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July 15, 2009 8:46 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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July 15, 2009 8:55 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 2:26 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 15, 2009 2:52 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Lee says>> Okay now I think I understand what you were asking. Your initial wording was unclear.

I have NOT changed ANY word in there since I originally posted those questions. I have been merely copy-pasting the same stuff repeatedly. May be because I copy-pasted it several times the wording became clear to some people. Isn’t that awesome?

Lee says>> Genesis doesn’t go into great detail, but apparently [...] Paul seems to imply this in Romans chapter 8:18-24:

Apparently? Imply?… Not sure, huh?
Does not compute… sorry.

Lee says>>the death of any and all living things was a result of Adam’s sin.

Hmmm… really?! Beats me…So I asked earlier>>Are you saying non-humans also die because of the sin of Adam? Is this what non-humans get from a just god of the true religions?
I am not expecting a response for the above two questions.

Rest of the stuff in your post, also does not answer my questions, which I again copy-paste here to make the wording even more clear:

>>I said>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}
>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}
I ask>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily resurrected believers when {B} happens?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 2:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 15, 2009 2:54 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
>>Lee: Why anyone would even WANT to be reincarnated again and again, hoping, if you’re an orthodox Hindu, that you come back as a higher life-form, rather than a lower one?

>>IFF: You shouldn’t. That’s the purpose of enlightenment or salvation — to get off the wheel of karma, the cycle of reincarnation, into eternal freedom and your immortal destiny.

Truly beautiful response IFF…

>>IFF: Again, more foolish from a myth-bound religion [...]

In that last part I would change myth-bound to history-bound… Myths are very useful/interesting when understood esoterically (like the Hindu creation myth Bryan and I talked about earlier), which I am sure you are familiar.

Here is a long article about the problem with history-centric dogmas. It is not very easy to read, initially. You may have to read this a few times to understand:

http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:problematizing-gods-interventions-in-history&catid=24:unclassified&Itemid=33



In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 3:13 PM PDT

Raulito says:
Laura,

How does your belief differ from what the Christians believe, to enjoy the peace and joy God offers us now, and that peace and joy shall be complete with God after we die. Why must you subscribe to reincarnation?

I mean, God made you, God created you, and he call us you to complete union and friedship with Him when you die. If the goal of your life is to live in union with God now and tomorrow, and when you die, why is it crucial to subscribe to reincarnation?

I mean, the Christian at least says they believe in eternity with God because Jesus said so in the Scripture, this is their authority. By what authority does a person believe in reincarnation?

Raul



In reply to an earlier post on
July 15, 2009 4:02 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 15, 2009 4:12 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello HoverCursor,

The information l’ve got on evil, which may be wrong after all -is that their are 2 different evil spiritual forces that can work through humanity. Fallen Angels who are seeking Power within the world. However these type of forces are apparently required for the purpose of our learning process, to become more developed and to allow us real inner freedom and inner choice. This is why reincarnation and karma are a necessity process for humanity. We have to experience all these forces at work in through us at a personal level -and over many lifetimes, so that we can truely understand ourself and other people as one of the processes of karma. We must know the true meaning of hate, fear, lack, anger, guilt etc. But must also be able to recognise that these are not part of our true spiritual nature. Luciferic influences work on us through human emotions and thoughts. He is not a physical being as he has evolved from the spritual kingdom. All negative emotions and thoughts come from this being and cause all the various forms of our suffering. Always trying to distract us from our true spiritual being and path which is of course to unconditional love. Luciferic influences are extremely clever in that they make us believe it is us ourself, rather than their opportunist influence working through us. Probably because they easily can. There was a larger reason but it is eluding me at the moment! Sorry. However all these negative emotions and thoughts can be overcome. It is up to us to recognise them acting through us, as they are managing to manipulate us, and find our own methods to overcome these type of forces in whatever form that takes for us. This is also related to our own karma of course. The other negative influence is Arhiman, who also has a variety of helpers What he wants us to believe is that there is only the physical world and no spiritual world at all. In this way he can stop our spiritual development from functioning at all, or at least for a while. Arhiman wants to control the earth as his own domain. He works in close partnership with Luciferic influences that are acting upon us.

Both these Spiritual entities, along with their helpers, are seeking ultimate Power to rule over and transform the Earth into their special domain. Actually this is only Arhiman! And gets even more complex in nature if you believe that Christs sacrifice was to especially merge his being with the actual earth and everything this includes! This may have become necessary out of his special Supreme love for humanity, and why Christ was able to merge his being into ours.. because of these two entities damaging effects??

Not sure if l’ve made a very good job of explaining this. Have probably missed out important aspects to it aswell. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 12:37 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
HRR, Yes and what wonderful stuff life can become!

If we can think of our life as being like a beautiful painting or tapestry of Life – can’t think where this part of a saying comes from! Or could use a song as an example aswell, for the notes contained within the song.

Anyway back to the painting. If we really look at what makes up the painting, there are lots of contrasts between light and dark elements/shades contained within the whole picture. If these contrasts where not held within the picture, we would not like the picture. The painting requires these two diferent affects, and to various degrees, to become really pleasing to our eyes.

Therfore our human existence or life could be veiwed as a painting, and of our own personal experiences making up the whole person and the influences affecting us, could it not? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 2:51 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 17, 2009 2:59 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello DogmaToxin,

AND if you think about it all myths, legends, fables always contain some form of spiritual truth in then that we can then relate back to our own life. In order for me personally to do so l have had to take on a step ladder approach to self learning by having postive and very negative events occuring for me in this lifetime… eventually my realisation has become that yes indeed …we are all as one. We are all affected, made up and contain the same cosmic energies available to everybody.

Can’t remember now if your the person that’s in to science etc? These theories are always changing and developing further….like everything other aspect of life of course. We do change over time, physically, emotionally, mentally up to spiritual soul level and beyond because of our ability to learn new things. It is also very easy to fall off the said ladder…which is also alright, as long as we eventually climb back on and try yet again.

As l’ve mentioned before before we expereince any emotion there is always a thought first in relation to our own life’s experiences which affects our behaviour and attitudes to self and others. Thoughts can be illogical because of their emotional affect on ourself and others, and their affects our personal behaviour’s and belief’s. The conscious and subconscious minds are very powerful tools that can lead us off into more positive or negative pathways. This is why it is so very important to observe and notice our own emotions and thoughts and relate it back to our life experiences and search for further understanding in what ever form this takes us. Depending where we are coming from also has it’s affects. If we can allow changes to occur within our own self beliefs we have the opportunity to view our life from a different, more open, or larger prespective. Otherwise we become stuck in our own growth patterning and within our own inner control cycles .. which are very related to our own innermost fears.

Same pattern then could therefore also to be applied to religions. We are able to use religious information as a stepping stone on to more self understanding. Basing our beliefs only here however is again like becoming stuck within authoritarian rules. There is of course great goodness contained in these, but there is always much more to be achieved from the personal angle… aswell! Like only being halve of the whole story or picture! Like the effect of positive and negative spiritual influences. We need both in order to really see the real spiritual truths that are within us, and surrounding us in this world. What affects us will affect others behaviours and attitudes as well.

If we can at least try to think in a more postive open manner this then attracts more positive opportunities around us in our own life …which leads on to more positive events that will occur for us and around us, and that we should then be able to notice and recognise. Then the world begins to make more sense for us. We need to become conscious of our own subconscious mind. If we however become stuck in more negative, resticting beliefs about ourself, conscious or subconscious, then these restricting attitudes again attract more negative energies or events to occur for us..which then has a futher negative affect on others too. Then we experience the world as a negative place to be. The big BUT is that we do require both these type of learning experiences for spritual growth to occur at an individual level. The same rules apply to both positive and negative …but their affects vary greatly within our life and onto the world we live in. We all require periods of darkness to reach up towards the light. Real patience is required of us and the influence of own self-efforts, will, desires or dreams as well… in whatever form these take for each of us on an individual level. I’m so rambling will stop there!!! This is just what makes sense to me but am absolutely sure there are endless ways of making sense of the world for others and merges into Christ and God’s graces of Karma and Reincarnation. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 4:20 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Therefore our human existence or life could be veiwed as a painting, Reminds me of that picture of a painter painting a picture of himself, painting a picture of himself, painting a picture of himself, etc……



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 4:45 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 4:45 AM PDT

May says:
Agree



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 4:56 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 8:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 17, 2009 8:34 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Raul,

There is no difference really except Christianity places the power just through words contained in the Bible. The enpowerment issues and responsibilities come from outwith your actual control if you know what l mean.

Nobody could ever experience the amount of lessons, all the positive and negative issues in just one lifetime. It is just not possible! It is again like a the ladder or picture senarios l explained earlier. Therefore our own personal Karma, which in my head comes from Jesus/Christ’s ultimate sacrifice or death allows for our contuing spiritual growth whilst we are here on Earth. His death allowed for the extra special addition to our actual souls. In previous times, this added dimmension to our souls via our emotions and thoughts was not yet fully available to everybody, but is so now because of Christ. His crucifiction is directly connected to our own personal karma therefore. Reincarnation could also be veiwed as our ability to learn and have numerous chances to connect to the lesson’s contained with in Karmic expereinces, held within every reincarnation period. Nothing ever stays the exact same within the niverse. Sometimes it is gradual little changes as this is how we experience our physical world and also allows our human soul growth. Other times we can take huge leaps. We all know when these occur for us because of the beneficial affect it has on our own life and then onto others in whatever form that takes place. This therefore can change our world in a positive manner and the more people who can achieve this the better it is for all of us. It is a very scary concept as we then have the opprtunity to change our world by Christ’s very special gift to us. This affects humanity as a whole. Nobody is any better than anyone else in this type of senario. The opportunity for these choice’s resides with ourself. It always start’s with the self and leads forward to the world we presently inhabit. That is why living in the now is so important. That’s why we really are required to know ourself first before we can alter all our behaviours so that we are able to enjoy and inwardly observe the miracles and opportunities that do really surround us eveywhere. These are God and Christ’s gifts to us. Obviously there is also the opportunity for negative forces to become engaged within this process. Often we will be challenged by inner and outer events surrounding us. These are like tests to our own inner resolve. If we can remain in a more positive frame of mind and see challenges for what they really are, further lessons to be experienced, which can add even more understanding within our own life and therefore the world at large. We are only given these oppotunities through God and Chris’s benevolence towards us. Therefore the actual power does come from the spiritual realms, which is of course a part of our being like a seed or grain which can grow from within. However we need to experience it in human form.. for us to step up the soul ladder or see the bigger picture behind everything. How far you wish to go with this is entirely a personal matter and again returns us to karma issues and lessons again. There are veiled references to reincarnation in the Bible. Because the Christ influence needs time to grow within all of us, to be able to understand them in the stages it takes and make the connections for Spiritual growth.

Self experience doesn’t rely on authority alone because this makes for empty words ,no matter where they come from. If we don’t get the opportunity to physically experience these words within our own life’s working then we become stuck within our own spiritual growth. If somebody tells you what they have expereinced within their life , you can never really experience it in yourself… unless you have been through a similar lesson experience physically or emotionally or within your soul. Empathy or sympathy is not really enough. it is the actual experiecing process that matters.

Sorry going to have to quote now so you can see where l’m coming from here!Thus human knowledge by means of the senses, which needs the organ of the intellect in order to transform it into inner knowlegde. The knowledge that belongs only to the sense world forms one stream; the other consists of what men inscribe through the Spiritual Realms into the Akasha Chronicle. Through the Luciferic inflence, through the encroachmant of Luciferic beings, man diverted his power of thought and other powers of the soul which he would otherwise have used for the acquistion of occult (hidden) knowledge only, to the study of things belonging exclusively to the physical world.

There are many who say that whereas ordinary science is accessible to everybody, spiritual or occult science can be made intelligible only to those who are able to see into the spiritual worlds.

THIS IS A FUNDEMENTAL ERROR ,for in the depths of his own soul every man is capable, even before he becomes a seer, of recognising the truths contained within spiritual science. Admittedly, occult truths can be discovered by the seer, but when they have been discovered, and expressed in the normal language of human reason, they can be intelligible to every human soul who has the will to remove the obstacles to such understanding that exists within himself.

As a result of the Luciferic impulses it became possible at a later period in the evolution of the Earth for another Being whom we all call Ahriman, to aquire influence over the souls of men. And only when the possibility of understanding of spiritual science is held back through Ahrimanic influence in the soul does that understanding remain unattainable. If the Being we call Ahriman did not work in every human soul, if our souls were free from his influence, then an idea or thought belonging to Spiritual science would need only to be spoken and the soul, through its subconscious relationship to the truth, would feel: This idea, this statement of which everyday consciousness understands and can account for, and a subconscious soul-life which lies submerged as if in the depths of an ocean and only from time to time brought to light. In the depths of the soul there lies, for example, the fear that is present in every human being – the fear of the spiritual. This fear is the outcome of Ahriman’s influence and would not exist if Ahriman had not gained power over the souls of men. The reason why a man is usually unconscious of such fear is that it works in the deepest foundations of his soul and plays no part in what he can account with his everyday consciousness.

Sometimes this fear knocks at the door of a man’s ordinary consciouness without any knowledge on his part of what is disquieting him; and then he looks for something that will act as an opiate, that will then deaden this feeling of fear. He finds this opiate in materialistic thoughts, theories and ideas. Materialistic theories are not devised on a logical basis, although it may be believed that this is the case; they are devised as the result of a dread of the spiritual, which is the consequence of Ahriman’s influence upon the soul. Hence the preparatory condition for actual understanding of spiritual truths is much less a knowledge of physical science than an education of the soul in the virtue of moral courage, spiritual courage. Spiritual science can be understood by every human soul if this soul will only liberate within itself all the morale courage at its command and so frustrate the obsticles proceeding from Arhiman. ( or doubt!) There is also of course the possiblity that we can be lead astray through our own ego, self-enpowerment and then abuse these types of gifts. We have to be constantly watchful of this occuring in ourself. If we become too selfish or self obsessed, talk others down, judge others, produce fears in others, seek power over others..we are of course doing something far wrong. How do these type of actions and behaviours make others feel good about themselves? And how does this help our spiritual growth as a whole? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 8:20 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya HCR, Just read your comment about the once to die passage is not the argument that many Christians claim it is.

Can’t remember the whole context of the saying now, so will probably be waffling rubbish to those who do know it well! Can also be viewed from another angle perhaps? Like lots of little deaths or learning experiences occuring within our human consciouness, which would then may be replaced by something else or being reborn to opportunties for spiritual growth? After all once you have physically experienced a self spiritual truth, you can no longer behave or assume in the same manner as before. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 17, 2009 6:01 PM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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July 19, 2009 3:19 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya HCR, Yes agree with all you were saying in your tapestry comments. Doesn’t really matter what personal pathway you manage to discover to achieve this end, the methods are endless and depends on all your personal experiences etc,etc,etc. No way is the wrong way.

Ahriman etc makes personal sense to me, but could be replaced with any other similar belief system that makes sense to personal reasoning and understanding. The importance for me is just to try and become aware of your own thoughts and emotions and to really understand why we respond and react to outwith events occuring for us. Doesn’t matter how you achieve this, it is just knowing that your own thoughts and emotions are so very important to yourself understanding.

The ego, is required for individualism, and therefore spiritual choices and freedom as it is meant to be understood not in the way normally descibed and understood. Will be checking out the website you gave! The Lake of Fire. Not sure what this means but obviously very impotant to your belief system. What l picked up from it was, that Fire in relation to dreams, means the opportunity for personal development affecting your life through changes in your life , be it personal thoughts or emotions, personal events, personal history or consciousness, in fact all of these! Affects at an individual level and can be seen as an experience which may challenge you towards spiritual growth. Such as a negative event leading forward to a very positive achievement in the end for the real spiritual you. Will have to look up the Lake of Fire to see how this could be linked towards what l just said in connection to dreams! p.s we never reach the end of our life learning as opportunities occur for growth in everyday circumstances. From conversations, books, films, friends and family and total strangers, dreams, work – basically everything you can think of. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 19, 2009 3:34 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 19, 2009 3:36 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello again HCR, Just read your other mesage about the misinterpretation of spiritual knowledge. Yes this can also happen, and has happened for many civilisations and cultures. We can observe these type of spiritual malpractices from a huge variety of sources. Depends which ones hold special meanings to us personally of course. Probably too many to mention, as we can all come up with different examples of this occuring in the past and present history. But the UNDERLYING ANSWER REMAINS THE SAME…does it not? Self awareness through continual lifelong learning in whatever form this takes for us. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 19, 2009 4:16 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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July 19, 2009 4:26 AM PDT

hoverCURSORoverMYname4how2leavMESSAG says:
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Laura Stanton says:
Hiya HCR, Sorry not managed to look at these yet, after this… l’m hoping! Yes Ahriman and Luciferic influences are very closely tied and often difficult for us to separate out because they work as a team. Just like the Christ/God influences actually…but with the opposite affects on our spriritual development of course!! The ahriman/lucifer names could be alternated with whatever names make spiritual sense to yourself of course. Same affect repeated again. However naming beings also changes our understanding and can limit us etc. etc. How can you really descibe anything of real spiritual nature? We are presently only working towards this, and behind an answer will always be another question and answer. By naming and classifying in our minds we ultimately alter it within our own understanding and reason. This then limits us yet again and with even more paradoxes! This is well documented in various forms for spiritual meanings, names etc…. as l’m sure you are already well aware. Could be seen as a reason people often give up for a while!! Mixed messages yet again.

Beliefs from History are affected by humanities ability and understanding at that particular period of history, or at their soul development.. which then has the opportunity to continue to develop further throughout the centuries. Steiner calls these type of beliefs a reflection of the spiritual truths, from Beings connected to God but not actually God, because we were not YET ready at the said period of time to understand any more. So it is good to be aware of this perhaps. ie. there is much more to be learnt from us here and now on these type of subjects and beliefs…. the Bible included. But then he would say that wouldn’t he! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 19, 2009 8:37 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Me again HCR re lake of Fire information.

Yes agree again. Knew it would be something like that. Also links in nicely with spiritual and morale courage don’t you think, the very things we require to accumulate spiritual knowledge and truths for ourself? Sometimes we will fail of course as we are only human – but other opportunities will arise for us and we will have learnt so much more about ourself contained within the failing spiritual process itself.

Forgotten now, are you a reflexologist? Know somebody is. Anyway the feet express all our lifes experiences, and by that l mean all of it. Some forms of reflexology take this back to pre-birth experieriences from within the womb. Therefore looking and working with someone’s feet you can learn to see there stuck energy areas lie. Not the details of course just the indications of being stuck by colours, nodules, swellings, dryness which then require balancing.

The Feet Never Lie is the name of a book for reflexology practice, and all reflexologist use their training containing variations of the the different practice methods they feel happiest using. The purpose is to help people release their own stuck energies from working on the feet, hands, face and body, which then helps the client release their own inner energies that are holding them back from health and happiness within themselves. Like a form of self purification from their own self punnishment. Anyway that’s why what you were saying makes perfect sense to me. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 19, 2009 9:03 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
HRT, re wrong way message,This is the only way to learn true spiritual truths and unfortunately and they are required of us. Exactly because of the possibility of erring more towards Ahriman/Luciferic influences within our being.

This is part of the total earthly experience. This is how changes in our own personal beliefs,experiences and behaviours are accessed. This then allows our own awareness to expand, and follows on to more understanding of others etc.etc. If Ahriman and Luciferic influences did not have such a hold over us… it would of course be much simpler to achieve our spiritual growth. However it is destined to be done through this method, and much patience is required of us. Part of the whole process of being human. Even if these Luciferic/Ahrimanic influences where not present, they would need to be replaced with some other holding force. Too much power, too quickly would have a very serious negative affect on our own spiritual development, others and the Earth itself. An imbalance would exist… and these are golden opportunities for negative Beings to seek opportunities to abuse and twist the same said positive spiritual powers by working through us. Therefore they are really required l’d say. However we need to find a manner of understanding about these type of things and influences that works for us. Negative can always be altered into a positive force and positive can always be altered into a negative force. Yin and yang links again + all variations of such are required for the world to run smoothly and in an orderly fashion at the moment. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 19, 2009 10:57 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA

Just got back to this post today Sunday, I see I missed a lot!Thanks for your comment! As to the Casey Stuff!I was just busting HOVS Bal__s He quotes Casey a lot and I tease him about it!But I think it brings out the best in him!! BTW I have never checked HOV I assumed youre a HE!I will finish reading your stuff and then post my take



In reply to an earlier post on
July 19, 2009 12:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 19, 2009 12:03 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello there, Just though l’d post an old poem of mine because it fits in so perfectly here… l think! Could be wrong of course.

When l wrote it, it meant an awful lot to me, but now it means even more to me, because of the passage of time and further life experiences perhaps. I put the poem on an upside down rainbow painting l’d done – and this also means much more to me now, than it did then. I view raindows as signs or signals from God – colour healing energies flowing down from the Source. My upside down one represents the colour healing energies that we can send back to the Source… if that makes sense. It is like my own mini Bible!RainbowsTo forget yourselfYet give yourselfFreely and to all….Without obligationsCreates inner joysAnd the SpiritsGlitter Rainbows. LS



Posted on
July 22, 2009 8:31 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
HCR, Have lost the paper with your other discussion details on it! Checked your earlier posts for details but think you must have removed them? Please supply again for me. Thanks, Laura S



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 9:06 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA’YOURE A RAINBOW IN THE DARKNot for much Longer .hopefully!




In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 10:08 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURAYou wrote,,,Luciferic influences within our being…then you wrote, If Luciferic influences did not have such a hold over US, it would be much simplerto achieve our spiritual growth…Laura from where did this come from? Did this come from you or did you read it? and agree with it ? I am curious?The first part is Correct as to Luciferic influences within OUR BEING, however it is/HE IS more WITHIN than humanitycan comprehend, or IS willing to accept…The second part is an OPINION or UNDERSTANDING held by Most that is INCORRECT!Without said Lucerific Influences our Spiritual Growth Would be impossibleOur Spiritual growth comes from the Refining process, it is not the body which is being refined,from Pain, comes Gain, from Evil, comes GOOD, from DARKNESS comes LITE!As GOD commanded the LITE to shine out of Darkness!LUCIFER is our schoolmaster to bring US unto CHRIST……GODS plan is Cause and EffectThe CAUSE is Below the EFFECT is ABOVE,What is CAUSED (experienced) in the FLESH on EARTH , has its EFFECT (outcome) in the SPIRIT ABOVE,Without Lucifer there would be NO CAUSE,without CHRIST there would be no EFFECT….Opposites ? Yet the SAME, As your Soul is continously DRAWN from one Magnet to the Otherconstantly in motion CREATING ITSELF (glorifying) both ABOVE and BELOW…Without the Conciousness which is LUCIFER, humanity would not have EGO or Personality,and AGAIN I SAY the ONLY way to CHRIST is through LUCIFER!You ALL are Rainbows in the DARK!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 11:22 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Dear Alfaara, Oh thanks, that was a lovely thing to say! My soul is smiling. There are many more rainbows around than you can imagine l’m sure! Laura x



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 11:43 AM PDT

Little G. says:
Amen Christine. One time thru is all we get. giddeup!!! Littlegandy



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 11:45 AM PDT

Little G. says:
Laura,What is your definition of truth? Jesus Christ said He was the truth. Do you believe that, or not? Have you read the bible without reincarnation addressed? Littlegandy



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 11:59 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
DOGMATOXIN:, Lee says>> Okay now I think I understand what you were asking. Your initial wording was unclear.I have NOT changed ANY word in there since I originally posted those questions. I have been merely copy-pasting the same stuff repeatedly. May be because I copy-pasted it several times the wording became clear to some people. Isn’t that awesome?

LEE: I didn’t accuse you of changing any wording only of not being clear in what you were asking. You finally clarified enough in a later post that I understood what you were originally asking. The number of times you copied and pasted it is irrelevant. So rather that get smart or snippy you might think about expressing yourself more clearly the first time next time. It isn’t my fault that your question was difficult to decipher.

DT: Lee says>> Genesis doesn’t go into great detail, but apparently [...] Paul seems to imply this in Romans chapter 8:18-24:Apparently? Imply?… Not sure, huh?Does not compute… sorry.Lee says>>the death of any and all living things was a result of Adam’s sin.Hmmm… really?! Beats me…So I asked earlier>>Are you saying non-humans also die because of the sin of Adam? Is this what non-humans get from a just god of the true religions?I am not expecting a response for the above two questions.Rest of the stuff in your post, also does not answer my questions, which I again copy-paste here to make the wording even more clear:>>I said>>Microbes die; insects die; animals die; … {A}>>Stars ‘die'; galaxies ‘die'; entire universe ‘dies’ … {B}I ask>>Why non-human’s {A} die? What will happen to the bodily resurrected believers when {B} happens?

LEE: I don’t know how to be any clearer than I was above. According to Genesis the eventual physical death, presumably of all living things, entered the world through the sin of Adam. The text doesn’t state explicitly that the reason everything eventually dies is because of Adam’s sin, but Paul’s commentary in Romans 8 seems to imply this. If you want a clearer answer I can’t give you one.

As for the universe dying, Christianity teaches that it will one day be destroyed and then recreated by God. Then God will physically resurrect all of the faithful followers of Jesus who will live on the recreated earth, a paradise earth as it was before Adam sinned.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 12:11 PM PDT

Little G. says:
As for the universe dying, Christianity teaches that it will one day be destroyed and then recreated by God. Then God will physically resurrect all of the faithful followers of Jesus who will live on the recreated earth, a paradise earth as it was before Adam sinned
================================
What a marvelous thought. A new heaven a new earth, because the old has passed away. All things will be new. Bless the name of God – the world was hungry and waiting for restoration long before we arrived on it. It’s old as the hills! Bless you Lee Little



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 12:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 22, 2009 12:47 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee: Well, if I want to know and understand what historic Judaism and Christianity taught, I consult the works of scholars who have to be objective in order to ACCURATELY understand their topic (they aren’t always objective, but the discipline itself strives for it).IFF: Spiritual truth is not about accumulating intellectual knowledge. That has its place and may be of value, but if you want to know God, then look within. Find God within. And look to those who have realized God, not just thousands of years ago, but especially those God-realized persons who are alive now, because they can be of most help.

LEE: It is at least partly, seeing as how Christianity claims that Jesus impacted actual recorded history by his life, death, burial and resurrection. This is crucial in understanding Christianity. Jesus didn’t come as a teacher of timeless truths, but as the Jewish Messiah, who died and was bodily resurrected to save the world. Because this occurred 2,000 years ago, in a different time and culture, historians are important. If Jesus claimed to stand outside time and space it’d be different, but he didn’t-as the Logos, or Word, of God made flesh he came to earth as a human baby ca. 4-6 BC, during the Roman occupation of Palestine, and was executed by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate in ca. 30/33 AD. THIS is why history and scholarship matters.

IFF: Lee: This is especially critical with a faith like Christianity, whose central belief/claim/tenet hinges upon an event in recorded history.IFF: What do beliefs, which are of the mind, have to do with that all-encompassing love that comes from God, which can only be known in ecstatic union with the Divine Spirit? Do you want to fill head with a bunch of information, or do you want to know God directly?

LEE: See my above. I want to know God as he disclosed himself in and through the figure of Jesus of Nazareth. Just think about that awhile. God isn’t an abstract concept, vague feeling, or force-God is a personal being who came to earth IN PERSON . . . AS ONE OF US! I’ll take a personal God with skin on over your impersonal, ill-defined, vague god any day of the week. Yes, communion with the Holy Spirit does encompass subjective feelings, but not at the expense of Jesus’ entering the time-stream to defeat sin and death. What good is a loving God who didn’t do anything to stop sin and death? Because according to Christianity, because of sin is why the world is so screwed up, and is why people age, get sick, and die.

IFF: Lee: Christianity teaches that God can be known in a variety of ways, of which direct spiritual communion is one.IFF: Good, then commune with God. Do you know how to do that? Have you experienced God directly?

LEE: Yes!!! But that doesn’t negate ANYTHING I wrote above.

IFF: Lee: If you want to REALLY know God you have to get to know JESUS, since Jesus is God’s deliberate selkf-disclosure to people.IFF: You can’t know Jesus directly because he no longer walks this earth. He told his followers that he would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit when he was gone. Jesus is long gone, so we now should receive the Holy Spirit of God in sacred meditation, as Jesus counseled.

LEE: Jesus reigns next to God as a fully human being-he did not shed his humanity when he ascended. He is very much alive and well, and speaks through the Holy Spirit. So in a sense, since Father, Son and Spirit are all three God, when I’m speaking to the Spirit I’m speaking to Christ, who according to the NT continually intercedes on my behalf to God.

IFF: Lee: Why anyone would even WANT to be reincarnated again and again, hoping, if you’re an orthodox Hindu, that you come back as a higher life-form, rather than a lower one?IFF: You shouldn’t. That’s the purpose of enlightenment or salvation — to get off the wheel of karma, the cycle of reincarnation, into eternal freedom and your immortal destiny.

LEE: Which is what? What happens to me when I achieve my immortal destiny? Doesn’t that mean that I cease to exist as a physical human being? Similar to the ascended Ancients in Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis? Or does that mean that my soul merges with the god-force or whatever?

IFF: Lee: Christianity deals with concrete things, not hazy spiritual abstractions.IFF: There’s nothing hazy or abstract about God communion. It is tangible and ecstatic, and it changes one’s sense of reality.

LEE: It IS intangible, because its non-physical and subjective. You can’t know in any objective sense that any of it’s real-it might all be a delusion. As such it has more to do with Platonism or Gnosticism than with authentic Christianity or Judaism. Orthodox Christianity, on the other hand, can be known to be true because there is very good evidence to support its claim that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

IFF: Lee: Christianity says… that you can’t separate body and soul and expect to have a complete person…IFF: I notice you didn’t say that Christ says… because Christ never said anything like this. If Christianity teaches this, then it is wrong. You are not a body. You are spirit.

LEE: As I keep having to remind you, Jesus of Nazareth was a 2nd Temple Jewish rabbi, who claimed to be the Christ, which was the GK term for the Hebrew word Messiah. In ancient Jewish theology. no distinction was made between body and spirit-that’s a GK Platonic concept that was foreign to ancient Judaism. The closet you get is the writing of Philo of Alexandria. Being the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, it stands to reason that Yeshua (Jesus) would hold to the Jewish beliefs about resurrection, which was that it was bodily. Which is exactly what Jesus taught. His PHYSICAL BODY got up and walked out of that tomb. Not understanding that he was going to be resurrected, his disciples mistook him for a ghost, but Yeshua took pains to show them that he was a fully embodied person-by eating broiled fish and letting them touch his physical body.

IFF: Lee: Christianity is clear that neither humans nor creation are a part of God, because he is separate and apart from that which he created.IFF: Again, more foolish from a myth-bound religion that does not reflect what Jesus actually taught. Jesus said, I and my Father are one. Jesus did not say, I and my Father are one…. and you’re not! Jesus pointed the way for us to follow.

LEE: Again, as a pious Jew, the idea that everything is part of God would be the highest blasphemy. Jesus didn’t have to point out that his followers weren’t part of God because as pious Jews the thought would’ve been incomprehensible to them. They had enough trouble with Jesus’ claiming to be deity that on a couple of occasions they tried to stone him for blasphemy. Had he come forward with some kind of pseudo-pantheistic teaching that everyone was a part of God they certainly would’ve stoned him! You CANNOT divorce Jesus from his Jewish setting, and his Jewish theology. Not and be true to the REAL Jesus.

So it is you, IFF, that don’t really understand what the real Jesus taught. You are imposing a set of foreign beliefs onto the Jewish/Christian Jesus of Nazareth, forcing him to teach things that he never taught. I’m amazed that you can’t see this. Actually, I’m not, really, because for literally centuries, people have been recreating Jesus in their own image. But the real Jesus will not be squeezed into such boxes. I URGE you to read and study this issue more. You will see that orthodox Christianity and reincarnation are like oil and water because orthodox Christianity is based upon the real, authentic message of the Jewish Jesus who, as the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, fulfilled the destiny of dying and bodily rising from the dead, thereby reconciling Jew and Gentile, thus forging one people out of two, one family out of two disparate families. Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection reconciled man to God and also brought about the recreation of the broken world. God loves matter. He should because he created it in the first place. Jesus, as God in material form also loves matter; he should, because he died to redeem it and even now reigns in his resurrected human body.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 12:43 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Alfaara, hope l can manage to answer your questions.

The lucifer information comes again from Steiner, no suprise there then! The bit you pointed out is my personal understanding of it through this lifetime experiences and from observing others with similar issues to my own. However maybe l did not express it very well or might even have gone off on a tangent from what Steiner, actually meant! He did point out that time will alter what he was saying because of the spiritual changes occuring for mankind.Because we are so used to Lucifer’s affects within us it is really difficult to comprehend that negative emotions are not part of our true higher spiritual being. We do all need anger, joy, concern, sadness and fears to ensure our survival, and to understand them. They play an important role. We have to learn to minimise there effects through us, so that we don’t just rant and rave at others without understanding where and why they are coming from first. Too much of any of these emotions leads to very negative affects for ourself aswell as others. Finding our own balance is of supreme importance so that we do not get caught up in Lucifer’s grip. He will gladly run off with our opportunities + chances for self development and spiritual growth….. and he will be laughing!!!Steiner says the ego is also a necessary requirment to eventually access free will and free choice. These are intertwined concepts of course. Gifts from Christ, but with Lucifer also having the opportunity to access and manipulate the ego. Self awareness is required of us and at a very individual level.The choice is towards spiritual growth… or not. Lucifer adds on much more depth to our consciousness than we can imagine. Just as his influences can produce very negative affects, they can also be transformed into positive affects and vice versa for Christ’s positive affects. If we can observe our false self in action, alter inner false beliefs and attitudes… this therefore affects our attitudes and behaviours towards others. The Ego is required to produce our individualism. This is really important according to RS. The Christ affect produces greater opportunities for our spiritual development of course. But these are again affected by the magnet affect you mentioned. Or how appealing Luciferic influences are to us, a form of self power and strength in the material world only. But it is a huge and often complex self illusion. Avoidance of looking at our spiritual nature + growth, ultimately stops this development, and we become stuck!(Ahriamn!) Lucifer loves to produce havoc within the world through mankind. Still need to look up Steiners exact words here. Hope l’ve manged to describe it well enough!Basically you can’t reach your true spiritual self until you’ve experienced and recognised the Luciferic influences which are also working within yourself.. and try to overcome them, in whichever form or manner that makes sense to you. A butterfly has two wings and yet it’s body never moves apparently, it is forever still and present, unchanging.. like our true spiritual self. (Got this from a website.) But here’s what it actually said. The 1st and 3rd eclipses (of the Moon) are the wings of a butterfly, or the place where you can see the Merkebah (energy). The middle eclipse (of the sun) is the body of the butterfly, or what you might call the Great stillness or Source. But there is nothing still about it! (From the recent alunajoy newsletter.) LS God turns you from one feeling to anotherand teaches by means of opposites,so that you have 2 wings to fly, not one. (Rumni of Rumi, can’t read my own handwritting!)



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 12:59 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
From one of my angels:Rainbow in the DarkWhen there’s lightning – it always bring me downCause it’s free and I see that it’s meWho’s lost and never foundI cry for magic – I feel it dancing in the lightBut it was cold – I lost my holdTo the shadows of the nightThere’s no sign of the morning comingYou’ve been left on your ownLike a Rainbow in the DarkDo your demons – do they ever let you goWhen you’ve tried – do they hide -deep insideIs it someone that you knowYou’re a picture – just an image caught in timeWe’re a lie – you and IWe’re words without a rhymeThere’s no sign of the morning comingYou’ve been left on your ownLike a Rainbow in the DarkWhen there’s lightning – it always brings me downCause it’s free and I see that it’s meWho’s lost and never foundFeel the magic -feel it dancing in the airBut it’s fear – and you’ll hearIt calling you bewareThere’s no sign of the morning comingThere’s no sight of the dayYou’ve been left on your ownLike a Rainbow in the Dark



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT

MamaG says:
I can’t think how to respond. You seem so genuinely confused! ALLFAARAA: from Jesus Himself Jn 8;58 ‘I say unto you ,before Abraham WAS, I AM..’ Jesus is telling them He has existed throughout all time. He was incarnated – endowed with flesh – to walk among men. As part of the Godhead, He was pure spirit – no carne – no flesh – so no RE in carnation. When He says, I AM, He reiterates the words of God the Father/Creator in the OT, I AM WHO AM, which I believe translates, Yahweh.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 2:14 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

RONNIE JOne of the GREATEST!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 2:24 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 22, 2009 2:28 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
MAMA G

Talking about CONFUSED!!! YOU have no understanding!! GOD NEVER SAID I AM THAT I AM!!That is your Christian translation!!!!!RIDICULOUS!!! You all fall into the PIT!!THE WORDS in HEBREW are EH HE YEA , ASHER, EH HE YEA, TRANSLATION I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE !!!!!!!!!THERE IS NO I AM THAT I AM>>>>>>>>> FOOL!ALSO THERE IS NO YAHWEH! ha ha ha ha ha lol lol lol LOLThere is no W in Hebrew the tetragramaton is YHVH or the LETTERS YOD ,HE ,VAU ,HE, in HEBREWit could be YAVEH but cant be YAHWEH………DUH! Of course JESUS is stating that THE SPIRIT which HE IS has existed BEFORE , IN THE FLESH!Just as now HE exists IN YOU! or mabey notYOU MIGHT BE COUNTERFIT! P.S. GO TO HEBREW SCHOOL!! OR DONT SPEAK I am still Laughing I AM THAT I AM MEANS yahweh please!!!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 2:38 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 22, 2009 2:41 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Lee says>>So rather that get smart or snippy you might think about expressing yourself more clearly the first time next time. It isn’t my fault that your question was difficult to decipher.

I had said>>I have NOT changed ANY word in there since I originally posted those questions. I have been merely copy-pasting the same stuff repeatedly.since I originally posted those questions – means the very first time I posted them. Anyway… I am going to let this slide. I am sure others reading/contributing on this thread know the truth.

Lee says>>You finally clarified enough in a later post that I understood what you were originally asking.

Hmm… I don’t remember clarifying. I never thought it needed clarification.

Your accusation of me not being clear the first time and clarifying later will be believable only to some new readers on this thread. Apparently that is your intention.

Lee says>>As for the universe dying, Christianity teaches that it will one day be destroyed and then recreated by God. Then God will physically resurrect all of the faithful followers of Jesus who will live on the recreated earth, a paradise earth as it was before Adam sinned.

Nice… For your sake, I hope this god gets it right the next time…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 2:38 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
BRYAN

Ok give it up!From where do you get all these lyrics?What is the website PLEASE?There are some other DIO songs I cant remember the words toand I need to know WHERE do you get them FROM?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 3:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 22, 2009 7:04 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LAURA>>The EGO is required to produce our individualisim…….The EGO is actually The guardian of the SENSES It is the EGO which allows the ILLUSION of the FLESHto be REAL….Why you think YOU are FLESH and not SPIRITWhat are YOU really? Do you think YOU are Human? Do you think that you are the BODY?Or are YOU that which LIVES in the BODY?Is the Body just YOUR GARMENT, Mabey just Clothes for GOD!According to the BIBLE , GOD, JESUS,SOUL,HOLY SPIRIT,and LUCIFER ALL LIVE IN YOUR FLESHand of course the EGO which makes YOU believe that YOU are that EGO ,the FLESH and not That which YOU reallY ARE,ALL are VEILED in CHRIST and all are VEILED IN LUCIFER ,SPIRIT AND SOUL,



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 3:26 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

I’m growing weary of this dialog with you because I don’t feel that we are finding much common ground. It is apparent that we are worlds apart in our understanding. What you must understand is that I’m not just throwing up a bunch of crazy ideas that I just dreamed up. These are things that I believe with every fiber of my being, just as strongly as you believe what you have written. When you write I’m amazed that you can’t see this, I’m equally amazed that you can’t see the limitations of your provincial version of Christianity. In spite of all this, I know that everyone approaches truth from the level of understanding that they are capable of. We can comprehend no more truth than our level of adaptation allows. Some people get stuck in intellectual understanding for a long time until they eventually see that this is a dead end. You will not know the real Christ as long as you try to understand him with your mind alone. You must become ONE with him, or rather, you must recognize in yourself your inherent ONENESS with the Christ spirit. You must do this eventually. No one, not even a Christ, can save you from your own sin and ignorance if you do not cooperate and make the sacrifice necessary in your own life, just as Christ sacrificed his life on behalf of others. As long as you remain in a provincial mindset that believes that Christ has one message, and those funny Eastern religions have another message, you are missing the universal truths that Christ spoke, and which every great spiritual prophet, savior, adept, master, emissary of God, or divine teacher imparted to the world. The belief in the inherent specialness of Jesus as God’s only son is really a belief in separation, specialness, and differences that mocks the perfect Oneness of God and His creation. From this belief arose a theology of sin, punishment, sacrifice, and judgment that became the foundation of Christian thought for over 2000 years, replacing what should have been only a gospel of forgiveness and universal love.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 3:33 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
IFF

You will not know the real CHRIST as long as YOU try to understand HIM with YOUR mind ALONE!

GIVEN! However you are preaching to the choir!

One must understand with their Hearts that HE may heal them,

That post to LEE was about the Best thing I have seen YOU Lay Down!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 3:37 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 22, 2009 5:01 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LOW RAA or LAURA for the Earthly YouOk I guess I will break down and read some Steiner, I need to see actually where He and I have common ground and Dissagree,looked up his BOOKS, Which ones should I GET Please reccommend, Bryan also Reccommended one/ but two have almost the same titleboth were Higher Worlds What do you say!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 3:38 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>BRYAN>Ok give it up!>From where do you get all these lyrics?I just do a web search, it’s one of the reasons, though not the only one, that I couldn’t give up my computer.

Other than that, they either come via the Holy Spirit or other angels. In this case it related to another angel, though it’s one of those that’s more a riddle.>What is the website PLEASE?It varies. Especially as more of them are protected against copy and paste.>There are some other DIO songs I cant remember the words to and I need to know WHERE do you get them FROM?Just do a search.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 4:22 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan

Thanks I will try it, BTW in case you dont knowthat song is one of my favorites Rainbow in the Dark by Ronnie James Dio



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 4:32 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
It’s the only one I think I liked by that band (figures of course that it’s related to an angel).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 22, 2009 4:59 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
Bryan Ok found them,Holy Diver is another of his songs with Angelic reffs,EGYPT,CHILDREN OF THE SEA(Atlantis)EVIL OR DIVINE ,also about AngelsTheres no back door to Heavenjust a front door to HELLDont talk to strangers,cause there only there to do you harmdont write in starlitecause the words may come out realdont hide in doorwaysyou may find the key that opens up your soulDont go to heaven cause its really only HELL



Posted on
July 22, 2009 10:17 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:46 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Holy Diver (not too bad):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj7UBgVVew8



Posted on
July 23, 2009 8:25 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
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In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 9:57 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 10:01 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: I’m equally amazed that you can’t see the limitations of your provincial version of Christianity.

LEE: This provincial version of Christianity as you call it, has been the catholic (universal) view for literally 2,000 years. I didn’t just make this up yesterday. The universal church has taught this provincial view of Christ from day one. I find it curious that this idea that Jesus was a Buddhist is apparently a relatively late argument. Furthermore, it commands little endorsement by scholars of Jesus or early Christianity. I find it unbelievable that if Jesus really WAS an Eastern Master that the scholarly community-many of whom are more skeptical of orthodox Christianity than you are-wouldn’t have discovered it yet. Yet in all the theories about alternative Jesuses, nobody in the scholarly community has put forward the theory that Jesus was Buddhist. Because there’s simply no evidence that he was. There are theories that Jesus was: an apocalyptic Jewish prophet; an Essene; and a wandering Cynic philosopher. But so far no serious academic has posited that Jesus was a Buddhist. This should be big news. Where are the press conferences with the Dali Lama announcing this news that would upset traditional Christianity? Where are the scholarly panels where Buddhist scholars debate with mainstream Christian scholars and Jesus experts? I’m sorry if this makes you angry, but if you want to follow the truth, you hafta stick to the facts. I know you fervently believe your views are right. So did David Khoresh. Just believing it fervently doesn’t make a belief true. I would think you’d wanna know beyond a reasonable doubt that your beliefs are true. But with such beliefs as yours, there’s no way to verify them. All you can do is to insist that you know because you feel or have experieced them. There’s a reason courts of law don’t allow testimony based upon feelings or experience. They know that such testimony is subjective and unverifiable. They need actual evidence and eyewitnesses. Nobody would be convicted based only on a witness’s testimony that she believed fervently that the defendant was the murderer.

Christianity’s central claims are based upon actual evidence. For example, when somebody asks us how we know Jesus was bodily resurrected, we can show them this evidence. Not conclusive proof, but lots and lots of evidence that has been persuasive to many open-minded skeptics-like Prof. CS Lewis and Dr. Francis Collins, both former atheists.

Christianity has always taught that Absolute Truth exists, and is neither relative, nor subjective. My computer really exists whether I want it to or not, or know it. I might fervently believe that its really a toaster, but that doesn’t make it a toaster. Just so with the truths of Christianity. They’re either true or they’re not. Since Jesus was a historical figure as well as God incarnate, it matters what we say about him historically. For example, I wouldn’t attempt to argue that Thomas Jefferson was a mainstream Evangelical Protestant because he wasn’t. I hafta stick to the facts of his life as we know them. By the same token, I wouldn’t argue that Jesus was Buddhist because he wasn’t. There’s absolutely no credible evidence for this. I have to stick to facts. If subjective feelings or experiences clash with established facts, then I have no choice but to side with established facts. Not to do so is to live in a fantasy world instead of the real world. So I respect that you really believe what you’ve posted. Just as I hope you respect that I fervently believe what I’ve posted, and further, that I can and have offered credible evidence to support my beliefs. Of course I don’t really expect you to change your mind, but I would ask you to try to seriously consider it from my pov, as I really have tried to consider yours. I first encountered your views about 15 years ago when I was reading up on Eastern and New Age beliefs. Among others, I read a couple of Elizabaeth Claire Prophet’s (of Church Universal and Triumphant) books in which she argues that Jesus was/is one of the Acsended Masters, Kuthumi, if memory serves.

In fact, I’ve read just about all the alternative theories as to who/what Jesus was: CUT, Urantian, Buddhist, New Age, Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim, skeptic and atheist. None of them are persuasive to me.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 11:12 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 11:33 AM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LEE

You said>>>15 years ago when I was reading up on NEW AGE BELIEFS, I(you) read a couple of Elizabeth Claire Prophets books in which she argues that Jesus was/is one of the Ascended Masters,Kuthumi!Actually LEE she said SANANDA!You said >>Christianity has always taught that absolute truth existsME. Its just a shame Christianity DOES NOT TELL THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH! CHRISTIANITY and YOU ,have turned one of the greatest SPIRITUAL BOOKSever written INTO SOME GOOFEY RELIGIOUS BOOK!!!TURNING the Spiritual Principals/teachings of GOD and JESUS INTO rules and Regulations that sound REASONABLE to your REASONABLE little Minds!You have made the WORD OF IMMORTAL GOD,like unto the LIE of Mortal man!!You compare Apples to Oranges ,OF COURSE YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IFF IS SAYING!GOD CAN ONLY BE UNDERSTOOD THROUGH THE HEART, CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??Peace out ALLFAARAA



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 12:03 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 12:08 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee: I find it curious that this idea that Jesus was a Buddhist is apparently a relatively late argument…

IFF: Jesus was a Buddhist??? While I believe that Jesus spent time in the East and likely was exposed to teachings of the Vedanta, Buddhist, and/or Yoga traditions, Jesus came into this world with his own unique message. His teachings were no doubt informed by Eastern wisdom teachings, but they were not Buddhist. Nevertheless, when we read things like, Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (Corin. 3:16), it is pure Vedanta. I think you are mistaking my view that there is complete harmony between what Jesus taught and what Buddha and Krishna taught, with the notion that Jesus WAS a Buddhist or a Hindu. What Jesus taught publicly was what was appropriate and beneficial to the society in which he lived. What he taught privately to his inner circle of initiates included the esoteric practices that he no doubt learned in the East, and which every enlightened master transmits to his initiates. All religions ultimately come from the East, in some form or another, but the teachings are adapted to the time and place in which the master appears.

Lee: I know you fervently believe your views are right. So did David Khoresh.

IFF: Great rhetorical technique — compare me to a fanatic! Nice touch!

Lee: I’m sorry if this makes you angry, but if you want to follow the truth, you hafta stick to the facts.

IFF: Another good rhetorical technique — suggest that I’m straying from the facts, and angry! You’re good at this!

Lee: I first encountered your views about 15 years ago when I was reading up on Eastern and New Age beliefs. Among others, I read a couple of Elizabaeth Claire Prophet’s (of Church Universal and Triumphant) books in which she argues that Jesus was/is one of the Acsended Masters, Kuthumi, if memory serves.

IFF: There you go again! Funny thing is that I’ve not read Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I’ve heard of her. Amazing that I’m somehow channeling her views?

Lee: In fact, I’ve read just about all the alternative theories as to who/what Jesus was: CUT, Urantian, Buddhist, New Age, Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim, skeptic and atheist. None of them are persuasive to me.

IFF: They’re not persuasive to me either. However, what is persuasive to me is the ONENESS with the Holy Spirit that I experience, and I believe must be what Jesus transmitted if he taught the truth (which I believe he did), as opposed to the idolatrous and cultic belief system that passes for conventional Christianity.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 12:47 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Lee, Okay l agree the Universe will die at some point in the future, as all things die. The main difference from your opionion and mine is that l don’t agree to the physical part. Can you define a faithful follower of Jesus for me please? And how can the Earth be recreated after it is has died? Surley it must be a totally new type of world? However the thing l struggle with most is that only the faithful can be reborn physically in this new world. Is this what you actually mean or am l just lost in confusion? Aye don’t answer that because some will say yes!!Again this is not a benevolent God to me, or in my eyes… with conditions attached? Would these new humans’s remember there past life? Couldn’t resist the karma link there.

My present beliefs make me happier than your version l guess that’s the bottom line. That’s all l’m trying to say really. We can agree to disagree. Yes? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 1:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 1:14 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Littlegandy,

Am quite sure Jesus was the truth, but in a more veiled version than is contained within the Bible. There many wisdoms in his words. But there is much, much more to them, is all that l’m saying. Humanity was not as yet equipped to handle anymore information at the that time in history. Our individual souls had not developed enough, but have this option or chioce now through Christ’s gift to the whole of humanity, and by his death and ressurection. (Not physical, in my way of thinking, but spiritual.)

ps. Have not read through the Bible recently either but remember some of Jesus’s wise words that spoke to me at that time. But have also found other wise voices contained in other religions and along the same lines. Have you tried this? Or is it a sin to have an enquiring mind about these matters? The one chance previous comment, about only living once? Makes no sense to me at all. Please explain how we can achieve all we have to learn from one lifetime? We would have to experience every type of experience possible in one go. All the good as well as all the negative. Does not make any sense. However we can also agree to disagree? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 1:06 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STRATTON: Hello Lee,Okay l agree the Universe will die at some point in the future, as all things die. The main difference from your opionion and mine is that l don’t agree to the physical part.Can you define a faithful follower of Jesus for me please?And how can the Earth be recreated after it is has died? Surley it must be a totally new type of world?However the thing l struggle with most is that only the faithful can be reborn physically in this new world. Is this what you actually mean or am l just lost in confusion? Aye don’t answer that because some will say yes!!Again this is not a benevolent God to me, or in my eyes… with conditions attached?Would these new humans’s remember there past life? Couldn’t resist the karma link there.My present beliefs make me happier than your version l guess that’s the bottom line. That’s all l’m trying to say really. We can agree to disagree. Yes? LS

LEE: According to the New Testament, the only way to be saved is through the shed blood of Christ. This isn’t arbitrary. In Judaeo-Christian theology sins can only be remitted by the shedding of blood. Thus Judaism had its annual sacrifices for sin each year on the Day of Atonement. Christianity teaches that those animal sacrifices, were temporary in nature, and ultimately unable to conclusively deal with sin and death. A greater sacrifice for sins was needed, which is why God incarnated himself as Jesus of Nazareth and willingly offered himself in our place. He died so that we will be physically resurrected-as he was-and live forever. There was basically no other way God could save us than through Christ’s sacrifice-if there was any other way then Jesus died for nothing.

As for the earth being destroyed then recreated, if God created it in the first place, he can destroy it then recreate it, perfect, as it was in the beginning. No sin. No death. No sickness, disease, war, famine, intolerance, violence, etc.

As for people who never hear about Jesus, I hafta think that our benevolent God will be merciful to them, too.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 1:21 PM PDT

DogmaToxin says:
Laura dear… you need stop saying this humanity is/was not ready… You and I know the vast majority of humanity that was outside the closed-minded humanity you talk about was/is ready, always. As I had mentioned earlier, karma, reincarnation, non-duality were all well developed, documented concepts in India as early as 2800 years ago (the knowledge itself is much older).

Can you use a word other than humanity? Please… It sounds like you are saying non-white, non-Christians are not human.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 1:23 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Sorry me again Littlegandy, Have you ever thought that this new world may not be a physical world at all? Because we may have developed our souls’s far beyond the need of having or requiring an actual physical world. Just wondering!

Being reborn but not in the physical sense… is what l’m trying to imply. Surley this is also a marvelous thought? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 1:50 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee again,

Just read your last message with IFF.

The idea that everything is part of God would be the highest blasphemy. Does this mean you think this of IFF,myself, Alfaara, and everyone else with these type of beliefs? What then happens to Jesus’s wise words of forgiveness and treating everyone equally then? + How come if Jesus was ressurected physically… but then he didn’t remain? Perhaps he couldn’t because he was again spiritual but with an supreme committment and purpose towards joining with humanity to help develop our individual souls. It is well known that the physical body starts to decompose after 3 days after death, unless in extreme heat or cold conditions. This is the etheric body lingering after death close to the the physical body..which is requirement for life and death purposes.

My father lost his leg, yet could still feel it’s physical presence and itchiness on occassions, much to his annoyance as he could’nt sratch it because it was no longer there! I digress, oops, sorry! How can you explain this then to me? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 1:55 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan, Oh l liked your poem from one of your angels! LS

(But morning eventually comes of course for all of us in the end. Ha.. here’s hoping!) LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:14 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Alfaara, Oh that was a very cheeky response to Mama G!! Sure you’ll get one very similar back as well! Think your just getting exasperated perhaps?

Of course l’m bound to agree with what you’ve said about the, Jesus is stating that the spirit which he is has exisited before, in the flesh. Just as now he exists in you. Spot on in my opinion too. We’ll be labelled as blasphemising again! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:29 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LOW RAA

Cheeky! are you from jolly old England LOL?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:33 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 2:47 PM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
Reincarnation is wrong because it claims some human beings are greater than others, ie. the hindu caste system, prejudice,… the biblical truth is that some people are more righteous (more humbly, repentant of sin, daily desiring to be changed, hear, obey, love, revere, GOD JESUS more and desiring to be part of His Kingdom, under HIS perfect, holy, rule and reign) And only because of this humble, repentant, seeking, can some people can hear God better than others, and present more of HIS Divine Nature, be like JESUS, more.

Satan, and evil principalities have created many religions, and lies on earth. Be wholehearted in seeking the True GOD, look at Jesus, He’s the only GOD who I want to live with for eternity. God speaks to those who TRULY want to know HIM, and will reveal HIMSELF and HIS Kingdom to those who truly seek toknow HIM (and not just blindly follow other humans, including those who wrote the scriptures,.. parents, church leaders, etc)… you will recognize the Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit IN the SON, JESUS our King. whose been given all power and authority over heaven and earth.,… He is loving, and patient, but will soon come to shake, and tear down what mankind and Satan have built for themselves.

By the way as you wholeheartedly hunger, thirst, seek to Know HIM more He will reveal to you that the scriptures are correct. The Scriptures are great to DISCERN the voice, presence, and works of GOD on earth, and on humans, .. but He never mean for us to blindly follow a book, but HE HIMSELF, HIS Presence… and only by His Presence can we find any strength to keep HIS Laws, our conscience (knowledge of good and evil) is very corrupt.

Lord be merciful to me a sinner, I need YOU, please reveal YOURSELF to me,…. teach me your ways, I don’t want to believe lies anymore, and I don’t want to transgress any of YOUR laws,… I want to learn to LOVE and Obey YOU, King Jesus for eternity, … help me All other kingdoms will be shaken and destroyed ….ONLY JESUS Kingdom will remain.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:36 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 3:16 PM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
Our Spirits are eternal, they live forever,… either in heaven or hell. Whatever Kingdom our spirits CHOOSE to live for while in these decaying earthly bodies. If we don’t CHoose to want to be part of God’s Kingdom under King Jesus rule, and reign, GOD is NOT going to force us. GOD is NOT in ALL of us, for most reject HIM. We are NOT GOD.

The TRUE GOD who created us only wants us to recognize our desperate NEED of HIM, HE can change us in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we don’t need many lives down here in this place of much suffering. HE wants to reveal HIMSELF to us, and as you truly SEEK HIM, you will find out HE IS JESUS,.. the only version of GOD that makes any sense. A loving sacrificial GOD (like a perfect Parent) who wants only to walk with, teach, heal, warn, comfort, change HIS Children so they avoid the curses that come when we walk in naivity, ignorance, or rebellion. HE desires to drive out all the darkness…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:49 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Afaara again, hope l can clarify these points with you. l am a spirit living within a physical body at the moment. Living in the flesh allows for my soul to have the chance of development – which differs from my spirit, but is again connected. My soul has to try to evolve through each lifetime to reconnect with my true spiritual being again.

To attain this level of development l have to choose to do so as part of my free choice + free will.

To access this higher knowledge, attempts and opportunities arise in this lifetime to achieve this higher connection with the Source or God. There are many levels in trying to acheive this aim. Failing is also permitted. Guardian angels, Arch angels, higher self etc. I have never spoken directly with the Source, but through his helpers and through Nature. The physical body, etheric, emotional body, mental body, soul body, spirit body are all a requirement aswell for these opportunities to occur, and at an individual level. New age stuff perhaps.. but which l find very useful on my own personal soul development opportunity, because l have experienced these many times, through various healing experiences, giving and recieving, within this lifetime. We may not agree on this aspect of soul development… but then this is my pathway and not yours. However our spiritual outcomes and personal beliefs do appear to be very similar… do they not? One of the miracles of God’s workings within us, perhaps? Everything appears veiled, until we have personal experience of it, and even then, this can be developed even further. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:54 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LOW RAA

Have you spoke to HRC recently?

He might have gotten the BOOT for a while, I am not sure

Amazon deleted three of his posts to CHRISTINE !

HEY Hov? aRE YOU OUT THERE??



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 2:57 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 3:04 PM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
JESUS gave alot of warnings, talked about heaven, and hell, judgement.. we are accountable for eternity for our choices, beliefs, rejecting HIM, HIS Truths, HIS Sacrifice, HIS Power and Presence to SAVE us, teach us, lead us, reveal the TRUE GOD (Elohim, Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit) to us. He said alot of IF you reject me, and my words then punishment,…

But yes, if (like most of the Christian church is doing) we leave out the WARNINGS of JESUS, the teaching on eternal acountability and judgement for choices and our sins, the struggle with Satan, demonic, evil principalities that are all around us working to pervert GOD’s truth and deceive us,… =the warnings, and rebuke of the PROPHET, Priest, King JESUS,… then yes we are preaching something like BUDDHISM. (fight the bad things within yourself with own strength, self-help, not GOD’s loving presence and help). Against the evil principalties who work to influence us to sin, no self help can work,… only the LIGHT of JESUS PRESCENSE can expose and drive out the darkness, and change the minds and hearts of humans,…



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 3:08 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
LOW RAA

WE may not agree on this aspect of SOUL developement>>>>>AHHHmy dear BUT WE DO!Not new age stuff, but a lot of this is stated in the BIBLE also!Well written I hope these are your Words!You have a good grasp on your spiritually, and are well on your way my dear!The path to enlightenment is steep! Many fall by the wayside!As the Bible states Many are called but FEW are CHOSENKeep climbing MY DEAR LOW RAA!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 3:25 PM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
Remember when considering the so called truths of the other religions that Satan came first as a TEACHER, to give humanity KNOWLEDGE, and tell us we are gods (ascended masters)…. satan works to pervert the truth and create many perversions of the Truth, …..

GOD knew this would happen so HE made a way back into the Light OF God’s Presence, by JESUS sacrifice and presence, so we could hear HIS VOICE, and learn what GOD truly wants to TEACH us. … and not have to rely, or trust in what any sinful, fallen, weak humans would write in a book.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 3:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 23, 2009 3:43 PM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
Buddha was a sinful, fallen human being so easily deceived, who tried to eradicate the evil’s within himself by self-help, and escaping reality into meditatation (so that he could escape being reincarnated into a lower form.) Instead Buddha opened himself up to the spiritual realm, to hear (receive revelation from) the rebellious (evil) deceptive spirit’s voices, and created his own religion. Many who do occult practices (escape reality into the realms via meditation,…hypnosis, altered states of consciousness, are repeating the same error Buddha made.

The True GOD is the only one who can change us, often by allowing many sufferings in our lives. This is where witchcraft, wicca, voodooism, hinduism, new age philosophy, shamanism, satanism, luciferianism, Islam, Kaballah, and all false religions and many perverted versions of christianity came from. God, Jesus, wants us to stay in REALITY, acknowledging HIS presence, and the Enemies presence, and the battles for our hearts, minds, and bodies that are occuring daily. (all sorts of mental disorders, and mental torments occur when people escape reality).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 3:52 PM PDT

ALLFAARAA says:
A.N>>>>Acknowledge HIS presence and the ENEMIES presence! Agreed!ME ,,,You must respect the ENEMIES POWER as much as You despise IT!otherwise YOU WILL LOSE!Hearts minds and bodies??But it is more a Battle for our SOULS no?



In reply to an earlier post on
July 23, 2009 4:07 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Sorry, Andrew, I’m not susceptible to threats of hell, punishment, judgment, etc. I guess I have a problem with fear-mongering. Also, I object to exclusive interpretations of any religion which insist that there is only one path to truth and all others are false. That kind of thinking is characteristic of a cult.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 12:26 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 12:30 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya IFF, Yes agree to your message re Christianity that, The belief in separation, specialness, and differences that mocks the perfect Oneness of God and His creation….. – especially as you explained it within the last sentence. A gospel of forgiveness and universal love – this is also a sentiment that l also believe with every fibre of my being. Especially because of the personal difficulties l have had achieving this belief! The hardest forgiveness and l believe this to be true for all of us, is self forgiveness. Through our own trails this can be achieved in whatever manner is applicable within ourself. This then enables an easier forgiveness of others, who may have harmed us, intentionally or unintentionally as the case may be.

By far the greatest injury we inflict apon ourself is via our own emotions and intellect or reasoning. This can be observed in others, but only when we have expereinced similar stuckness issues, in relation to personal understanding of methods available for our spiritual growth process. This too however is continually evolving, and can be done so on a daily basis by observations of self and others.. to achieve a better understanding of the world… and our own unique influence within it.

From where l’m standing, this definately won’t be the same as everyone else’s beliefs, the Christ and Eastern messages are BOTH equally special influences for us. These together contain many of our soul development issues, and a type of marraige of both influences may need to be aquired, to develop a deeper understanding of the mysteries of Life on Earth. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 12:49 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Alfaara, Just wondering why you sometimes use Capital lettering to stress your thoughts and beliefs? Have seen this done within various other people’s responses as well. I know it is to emphasis the person’s individual beliefs. However to me all these capitals is like shouting. If we shout at others this then stops others from listening properly and a whole panarama of negative issues kick in, as a self defense issue. Ha… just thought l also do this type of response with my quotation marks! Oops!Is a type of bullying l believe. Much better for us to try and stay in a more neutral format perhaps? Plus l don’t see IFF”s comments as saying all the power comes from us… as this is definately not the case at all. We are not better than God and Christ and this would be a crazy assumption. They only allow us these type of personal soul developments and opportunities, that are present everywhere around us, if we can just try to understand them first and in our own unique way. Everything within the world is provided and influenced by God, the Source or whatever you choose to call his Supreme Being. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 12:56 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Reincarnation is wrong because it claims some human beings are greater than others

I’ve never seen this. Spent my share in eastern systems. Caste system I know. But the belief is a progression of the soul. If you feel less because your soul is impotent, or stagnant compared to another do something about it. Carry your cross instead of watching Christ die on his.




In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 1:03 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 1:10 AM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Andrew: all sorts of mental disorders, and mental torments occur when people escape reality

Son you have yet to see reality. But as long as we’re on mental disorders. I’ll list the ones that your kind suffers from as well as the symptoms. Alexithymia and anosognosia, neurological terms for klippoth or preta. (Ours words for you, mean generally, walking dead, empty husks, hungry ghost. as in no light. No logos.) We can see you.

The following is a list of the behaviors (short, since some are too complex to describe) of people with physical, visible brain damage — note how these describe the Christian norm, especially Victorian culture and its members today, even if they are not Victorian (or try not to be)! What is marked in parenthesis are my notes, not from the book. (Descartes’ Error: Antonio Damasio) 1. Lack emotions or feelings which direct logical or reasoning part of mind into correct decision making space where advantageous solutions to problems lie. 2. Lack awareness of feelings and emotions as direct perceptions of bodily states. Feelings and emotions are not associated with bodily organs, but exclusively with external objects, words, faces, etc. Which evoke them. Feelings and emotions are mere qualifiers in life for them, not real things. (Hence when the feelings rule them, as they rule others, they are unaware of it: their unconscious mind.) 3. Feelings are intangible, elusive, even mysterious; they are never cognitive or related to the intellectual verbal realm. (Poor vocabulary regarding feelings.) 4. Their bodies are their brain’s captive audience which is the reverse of how it is in animals, and normal people! (The unruly body must be controlled, prime dictate of Xianity and other such religions.) 5. The body is never used as a yardstick or guage for knowing and measuring the world. This frame of reference is missing in them. Some external reality or idea is used as a ground reference for constructions of the world and reality. (Their knowledge is outer, never inner or carnal.) 6. Bodily states are not a basic topic, they provide only support and modulation. 7. Out of the ordinary attachment to objects, collectables, collector’s behavior, including the collection sometimes of animals. (Compulsive, retentive, control-maniacs.) 8. Planning for future activity is always a disaster. (Ecology, economy, ad nauseum.) 9. Sense of responsibility to the self and others is impaired. (The devil made me do it; it’s the fault of some imaginary conspiracy of people who are not impaired and make well.)10. Inability to orchestrate one’s survival at the command of one’s own free will. (Hence they seek the head to guide them: fascism, religion, etc. Practical Jesus, some priest, some leader, etc.) 11. Inventive of tales with no foundation except one’s own fancy in regard to the self (Fantasy, lies; their selective amnesia as to the deeds they’ve really done.)12. Lack of concern about one’s future. (God will fix it; reckless behavior.)13. No forethought, especially for social planning.14. Decisions are actively disadvantageous, they set up their own downfall. (Thanatos.) 15. A value system exists and can be utilized in abstract terms, but it is unconnected to real life situations. Decisions are minimally influenced by past experience (they never learn) and old knowledge. Caprice reigns. (Civilized values – wear clothes, cut down trees, act polite and stuffy.)16. Mental functions are intact: attention, perceptions, working and long term memory, language, intelligence: their appearance is stereotypically normal (for the western world)!! (Good parrots who know nothing, and often learn poorly and parrot it all wrong except on paper tests.) Consider that these descriptions are defining physically brain damaged people, people with literal holes in their heads and severe damage! That’s the danger here. It also describes many people that are considered normal in western society.17. Self description or memory narration takes the form of dispassionate, uninvolved specator of one’s own life! One never gets a sense that the person has suffered, even though he is the protagonist eg, in a narrative about a tragedy. (Split apart from themselves, head versus body). (False memory syndrome, too?.)18. Defects in reasoning intelligence is only glaringly apparent in the late stages of reasoning close to the points at which their choices and selections are made, responses that affect one’s personal and social survival. (Sounds logical, but is illogical as hell; looks like a house, but it is a house turned upside-down with no foundation).19. Reduction in emotional reactivity and feeling. They seem cold-blooded or icey. Telling a story that is packed with emotional feelings that you know affected their lives, they can cooly say that, well, it was as if …blah blah, but what did they feel? No response, as if the feeling-state is not there. They have no clear words to define it.20. In reasoning, all options are equal, none are value-highlighted over others. Decision making landscape for them is flat.21. They all have courteous English valet politeness and are docile. (Note, description does not say French valet or German valet. English valet politeness is Victorian. Note that Germans and French never even went thru an historical stage like this. Must mean such people are rare or at least not dominant in those societies. This describes wasp normal social behavior and the behaviors of those that have been indoctrinated into such a society! To us, this is not normal to be this way. In fact: it is not normal to be this way, it’s the dead thing trying to act like a civilized human.)22. Constant light humor and witticism of a mildly sardonic type, sometimes hinting that the subject feels superior to what he is talking about.23. Deviations from routine cause bad tempers and frustration. (So they’d be likely to despise more random cultures who are easy-going and care-free.)24. Sexual interests are dim, emotional involvement with partners is lacking.25. Behavior is stereotypical, unimaginative, lacking in initiative. (Tend to want clones of themselves, all equally nothing.)26. Using reward and punishment on them does not change their behavior, as if they are unable to learn as any animal would learn using this method. (Either a massacre or the U.N. makes them go away after you’ve told them to get lost 100 times. Then they wonder why.)27. Memory is capricious: it fails where you would expect learning to have occurred, but it succeeds suddenly on a peripheral subject and often in great detail. (Repeat the same errors.)28. Neither happy nor sad. They are as if numb. Pleasures and pains both are short-lived. They are less able to experience pleasure and react to pain.29. They are rigid and perseverent in their approach to life. (Controllers, can’t let go.)30. They lack motor skills, sensory skills, and communication skills. (Seem stupid, motor retarded.)31. They lack and cannot construct appropriate theories of other people’s minds, or even their own minds. (They never know the effect they have on other people and how people see them)32. They are completely unaware of any handicap. They’ll deny it but tests show they are not lying! (They believe their own lies wherein they refute what is therefore they are not lying as the word lie is used since they believe it.) They have in fact lost the cognitive function needed to know they are handicapped. They may theorize about it if it is proven but they are still unaware of its inadequacy (in the way you’d be aware of a stomach ache).33. They may have a deceptive cheerful appearance; they often have an indifferent appearance which is also deceptive. None of these are voluntary or based on knowledge of the real situation they are in.34. They have diminished facial expressions. (Stone faced, stiff upper lips, startled-looking).



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 1:16 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 1:39 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Alfaara, Feeling guilty now about my wee niggle at you and others in my last posting. Please accept my apologies everyone. Also getting frustrated by some responses in this discussion, probably because they do not conform to my own belief system. But why should or could they? More self learning opportunities!Earthly me could rhyme off a whole load of good Steiner books for you containing the wow factor insights. l have mentioned some of the ones l have found personally useful. However my Spiritual self says to allow you to perhaps look through a listing and a short desciption of his works, there are far too many to mention here. Whatever ones speak to you l guess is what l’m trying to say here. I don’t know what type of soul questions you are wanting to enquire about or what type of links you are seeking, as this is a very unique personal issue! Can supply book titles later if you have any problems deciding. For me when selecting a book, say in a bookstore, or a website, l am usually looking for a specific book title but happen across another one which also speaks to me, if that makes any sense. Have found this always supplies me with more unique information that l can relate back to myself and my own process of learning, in that moment of time, or those Now moments. Have also found common ground and disagreements within Steiners work. However have also noticed changes in relation to these personal disagreements and that over time, and by re-reading again, some or all of the book, at a later date, and with a different question or perspective being applied, these disagreements lessen. Same goes for songs, poetry and paintings all creative works. There could be said no just luck senarios held within this type of process, as we are always being guided towards the right material for our own spiritual development. If we can ask for spiritual help it will be offered to us in whichever form is required of us when doing the asking. May not be in the form we expected either. Giving thanks and offering gratitude for this assistance is always apprieciated by our spiritual beings or helpers. Graditute is the memory of the Heart and an old French proverb. Thought this might hold a special meaning for you, as it does for me! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 2:05 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 2:09 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan and Alfaara, just read the song information you two were discussing. Just wanting to say my favourite songs are On a Clear Day You Can See Forever – (l’ve got the Shirley Bassey rendition + from the same said musical,) and Oh, What a Beautiful Morning from the musical Oklahoma are my favourites and have been for years. Make me happy and are happiness songs, often find myself singing these when feeling joyful. However my son always tells me to shut up because l’m embarressing him in public, even if there is nobody else around at the time! ps. an old black and white movie was on telly yesterday and found myself watching it although l had other things to do! Have seen it before years ago and is a wonderful spiritual movie. Called The Lost Horizon, a romantic adventure about an idyllic Himalayan valley, Shangri-La, untouched by the outside world. Stars Ronald Coleman and Jane Wyatt. (1937) Absolutely wonderful movie by the way, just wondering if either of you had ever seen it? A Frank Capra movie based on a famous James Hilton novel classic. Must read the book now if l get the chance! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 2:44 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>Absolutely wonderful movie by the way, just wondering if either of you had ever seen it? A Frank Capra movie based on a famous James Hilton novel>classic. Must read the book now if l get the chance! LS

It’s based on a real event too (not that the author knew it). It’s the tale of the end of days of Sodom and Gomorrah.

There’s also a musical version of the book.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 1:06 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Akh: Carry your cross instead of watching Christ die on his.

IFF: Well said. In that one sentence you encapsulated everything I’ve been trying to express about personal sacrifice vs. vicarious sacrifice.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 2:32 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: Hiya Lee again,Just read your last message with IFF.The idea that everything is part of God would be the highest blasphemy. Does this mean you think this of IFF,myself, Alfaara, and everyone else with these type of beliefs? What then happens to Jesus’s wise words of forgiveness and treating everyone equally then? + How come if Jesus was ressurected physically… but then he didn’t remain? Perhaps he couldn’t because he was again spiritual but with an supreme committment and purpose towards joining with humanity to help develop our individual souls. It is well known that the physical body starts to decompose after 3 days after death, unless in extreme heat or cold conditions. This is the etheric body lingering after death close to the the physical body..which is requirement for life and death purposes.My father lost his leg, yet could still feel it’s physical presence and itchiness on occassions, much to his annoyance as he could’nt sratch it because it was no longer there! I digress, oops, sorry! How can you explain this then to me? LS

LEE: Hiya back. I realise that what I’m posting to yous probably sounds dogmatic and intolerant when such is not my intent. My intent is to accurately (or as accurately as I’m able) describe to you what true, authentic, historic Christianity teaches.

You have to understand that Christianity evolved out of ancient 2nd Temple Judaism, and though it reinterpreted a lot in view of Jesus’ bodily resurrection, it retained that Judaism’s basic assumptions about the nature of YHWH (God), his creation, reality and truth.

In ancient Judaism YHWH existed, eternal, uncreated, outside of time and space, in another dimension as we might describe it now. YHWH created the physical universe, and put animals and people on the earth. Furthermore, people were created in YHWH’s own image, meaning we are consciious, self-aware, and capable of rational thought and making independent moral choices. In the beginning everything was perfect-there was no death or disease. But because the first people disregarded God’s instructions to them, death, both spiritual/moral and physical, entered the world. God’s perfect creation was now flawed because his people used their moral freedom to rebel against him. As a good parent he had to allow us to go our own way if we so chose. But he couldn’t reverse the consquences of our action-we would have to suffer the consequences of our foolish moral choices. Thus we age, get sick and die, lie, cheat, steal, wage war on each other, destroy the environment, etc. But as a loving parent, God designed a rescue operation whereby we could be saved. This involved his coming to earth as one of us-Jesus-and allowing humans, his own children, to kill him, thus offering himself as a substitute sacrifice in our place. He died so that we might live, not only that, but so that all of creation could be restored to what it was before the fall. His bodily resurrection conquered physical aqnd spiritual death once and for all. BUT-in order to be saved and reconciled to our loving Father, in order to obtain eternal life, we have to first believe that he exists, and died, and was resurrected to save us.

His blood being shed was what removed our guilt, thus we have to access that blood by calling upon him.

Christianity teaches that this is objectively true. Jesus was literally, historically, dead, buried, and bodily resurrected. There is no other way for us to live but through Jesus’ death. This teaching is non-negotiable. Christianity teaches that there was LITERALLY NO OTHER WAY that God could save us.

Thus, in Christianity, we die ONCE, then if we were followers of Christ, we will one day be physically resurrected to live in God’s beautiful new world with Jesus. Jersus conquered death by his resurrection however until he physically returns to earth the final time, humans still die physically. But as I said, faithful followers of Jesus will be physically raised from the dead in their same body, but one that is in some way miraculously transformed, so that it no longer ages, gets sick, or dies. Many Christians believe that animals, too, will be resurrected.

The NT is VERY CLEAR that Jesus was PHYSICALLY resurrected. The gospels record that when the disciples first saw him raised from the dead they thought he was a ghost, but Jesus assured him that ghosts don’t have flesh and blood as he had, then he ate broiled fish. Seen any hungry ghosts lately? On another occasion Jesus stodd in front of them and let them touch the wound scars that were still on his body.

When Jesus ascended back into heaven he was still a human in a human body. When he returns to earth it will be as a human in a human body. Some Christians think that immediately after death your soul enters a kind of suspended animation or soul sleep. Others think that your soul immediately goes to heaven, which is simply God’s realm, or dimension, until your body is resurected and your soul is put back into it.

God can do all of this because he is the eternal, uncreated, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. HOW he does it is a mystery no mortal can comprehend.

As a Christian, I believe that Christianity is objectively true, and that there is evidence that supports its being objectively true (not total conclusive proof, but lots of circumstantial, historical and philosophical proof nonetheless). Consequently, if Christianity is true, then other religions are not. Again this may sound dogmatic and intolerant. But just think about it. Would you accuse your doctor of being dogmatic if he insisted that one type of medicine, and one type of medicine only, could cure your illness? All medicines are for curing illnesses, all medicines make people feel better, you might say, which is true. But it ISN’T true that all medicines cure all illnesses. You couldn’t, for example, take sinus medicine for a heart problem. Thus, you have to take the SPECIFIC medicine prescribed by your physician if you want to get well. This is how Christianity sees the situation with humans and their religious beliefs. Its not that Christians are judgmental and intolerant (oh I know many are), but that our faith teaches that the only cure for the broken human condition is Jesus and his death, burial and resurrection. Thus, just as it matters WHICH medicine you take for a specific illness, it matters which beliefs you hold regarding God, reality, the human condition, and Jesus.

Much of this is a mystery as to how it could be. We mortals cannot with our finite minds comprehend all that God is or does/has done.

Maybe this answers some of your questions.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 2:45 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 2:45 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Lee: You have to understand that Christianity evolved out of ancient 2nd Temple Judaism, and though it reinterpreted a lot in view of Jesus’ bodily resurrection, it retained that Judaism’s basic assumptions about the nature of YHWH (God), his creation, reality and truth.

Akh: I just had a realization, this is fine and good, you say this a lot as if trying to convince yourself. Ummm…But as Jesus spoke against the leaders of this establishment, as they had the keys they had the knowledge but did not use it themselves and did not allow others to do so….what then? What were they holding back that bothered him so? And since he was against them would you not have to remove him? Just thoughts that popped into my head. I won’t even get into the he was a Nazarene and THEY had a different outlook. Also in 2nd temple and prior the messiah was to just be a man…..what do we do there? Either you put him completely in or you remove him. It’s not like God same yesterday today and forever, was keeping this secret from his people Not like Surprise!

How ya doing everybody? Oh don’t look at me in that strange way, IT’S ME! GOD!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 2:59 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 3:01 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee, thanks your response did answer some of my questions thanks. Still not my way however, well no suprise there for you l guess. But can see why you may belief this now, as the main information l was seeking was supplied for your personal physical resurrection beliefs. Think l must have been in a grumpy mood that day aswell. Okay we must agree to disagree because would take me absolutely ages to supply other theories to question your beliefs… and got 2 young boys to get ready for bed justnow…as they are being very noisy, annoying + fighting and affecting the the earthly me! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 3:05 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Akhenaten. That was a fun response, well l got it! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 3:05 PM PDT

Raulito says:
Akhenaten,

Carry your cross instead of watching Christ die on his. How about both? We watch Christ die on this, but we also carry our cross If anyone wishes to come after me, he must carry his daily cross, deny himself, and follow me. Luke 9;23. Scripture also says We preach Christ crucified. I Corinthians 1:23. I suppose there is nothing wrong if we do both.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 3:12 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Raul, re your response to Akhenaten and l suppose there is nothing wrong if we do both.

Yes that sounds like a good start to me. Am sure others may, well actually will disagree… but it is entirely up to you and this is as it should always be. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 3:55 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 3:56 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee, have packed boys off to bed..at last! Just read your earlier response to IFF. Just wanting to point out that there is a huge difference between intellectualy reading information and from experiencing it on a individual personal level. Makes all the difference in the world, l believe… but then l would say that of course!Also just found a new quote that applies perhaps? Love is giving the other space to be the way they are, and the way they are not. (Werner Erhard) LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 24, 2009 5:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 24, 2009 5:08 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Lee,

About the animal sacrifies. Is this not the same as many other religions and pagan rituals in the past and present day? How does this fit in with the differerent forms of Christianity today?

Nothing stays the same either. We always flows forward as does the world…unless we as humans become stuck in negative patternings and behaviours which are also rooted in our subconscious. Know this one very well myself… before you ask.

The main difference l can spot is perhaps that you believe in the strength and power of the physical body, whereas l believe in the power and strength coming from the spiritual world, but also through ourself, thanks to Jesus/Christ sacrifice. Am l right in my thinking here?

Plus Jesus dying in an act of sacrifice for us l agree to. But, you knew l would have one…he died to allow us the opportunity for further spiritual development is my belief, not just the physical rebirthing. His body also actually merged with the Earth itself apparently, well his dust. This ultimate mergance, with the importance of his sacrifice for the actual Earth itself AND with Christ’s spiritual influence within us… and having eons to exist in this manner, for as long as it takes… l find amazing. The highest type of Spiritual influence imaginable in fact…. but yet still way beyond our present imagination or understanding. Well just my view. Therefore Christ’s actually dying contains so much more to offer humanity as a whole, rather than any physical resurrection could do. This could be viewed as fixating on an already known plane alone and could be seen as a safe place to go. Christ has already proved his total commitment towards humanity. Therefore his death was so not for nothing. This information may be way too far out there for most people, l do realise that. This option makes more sense to me, that’s all. ps. Just realised not managed to agree to disagree as in my earlier response to you.. so hopefully this message can be seen as just offering another perspective on it all. We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 3:01 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya DogmaToxin, Sorry yes l do keep repeating the same words and very often! Don’t mean humanity in derogatory way, just mean it as all inclusive for everyone. Just my personal take on it + Steiner also uses it often -info l’ve taken to heart obviously. Of course we are always ready for growth but RS very explicit about passage of time and the influence of specific spiritual enties changing within our soul bodies development processes, which in turn offers us more opportunities for our understanding. Which apparently have influenced everyone since the beginning of earthly time. I’m waffling yet again so will stop there! Can l use everybody instead of the h word then? LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 3:36 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 25, 2009 3:44 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya again Alfaara, Cheeky, no not from England but bonnie wee damp and Scotland. Live in the windy city of Edinburgh…no not that kind of wind! Ha ha. LSPS. forgot to say checked out my numerology numbers again. Think you were one of the people asking? Anyway found this very relevant to my life experiences! Couldn’t buy whole report as problemms with my debit card! Anyway info that l’ve managed to recieve is -Life Path number =6 which is accurate l believe, beeing able to see beauty in the world + in those around me.

Next one was the 4 pinnacles number for 3rd pinnacle or lessons =7. (I am a very young at heart 47 by the way!) So this puts me in 3rd pinnacle mode, which relates to my love of study, self discovery and spiritual development refinements of your understanding of yourself, apparently.0f my 4 life challenges number from my initial one from birth was a 5. Needing to overcome my fear of change and risk. (Links very well with my Taurus/Libra star signs then.) To liberte myself from that which restricts my self-expression. Was extremely shy until around 20 years of age and this confidence has gradually grown throughout my life. Growth of my individual freedom apparently! Third Life number is a 9, yahoo! Tolerance and love for others to blossom, exploring the depths for my love of my fellowman/woman. Great news for me then if l manage this one!Also checked my son’s numbers and his third life cycle is also a 9. His life path number is also a 6! Other ones vary but can see him in there. Wonderful stuff l’d have to say and glad that l checked it again. Have also been checking out my friends and ex-partner’s. Spot on for all l’d have to say. LS Oh forgot to say the people who care about me always call me Lol by the way. My dad did, my brother still does and many of my friends do. How’s that for a coincidence then… oops that makes me sound big-headed doesn’t it? Or maybe just lucky! LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 6:00 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 25, 2009 6:12 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Andrew, In regard to your reincarnation response, that some human beings are greater than others remark.

This is not what it means at all! We are just at different stages of soul development that’s all. This is perfectly okay. This occurs because of our personal choices within a said lifetime, and could be seen to be dependant on a previous lifetime experiences. A grace form from God and not a curse? Do however agree to the next part of your response, just a different way of looking at it perhaps and alows us more spiritual opportunities aswell. Righteous can also be used in a negative implication, do you not agree? Always makes me think of someone shouting. Could also be viewed as not listening well enough, and an authoritarian attitude perhaps? Telling someone else what they should believe never really works in reality, but we should maybe encourage others to perhaps question their own opinions and beliefs for any type, large or small adjustments opportunities to be made. Could also possibly be within moulded their present sure beliefs and expand them? Hope l’m making some kind of sense here.

As to Satan influences, these are also made less affective if we know ourself well and are aware of his influences within us. The now part l can see. However don’t think it will be a tear down situation re Satan… but more of a gradual awakening of what we do to ourself, which then reduces the chances of his being influencing us any further. Totally agree on, but He never mean for us to blindly follow a book, but He himself, his Presence…and only by His Presence can we find any strength to keep His laws, our conscience (knowledge of good and evil) is very corrupt. (This statement is directly mirroring the affects of Karma by the way.) Does this also include the Bible? Just wondering what you meant by this statement. All other kingdoms will be shaken and destroyed (transformed sounds better to me) …only Jesus Kingdom will remain. What happens to everyone else then? Or have l just picked up on something you actually didn’t mean here?? Nothing is ever destroyed after all, only altering, throughout time. God and mankind are a two way system are we not? One last thing, how come some people who are not religious within the accepted Christian religion concept, and there are many types of Christianity after all … can somehow see the Supreme importance of Jesus/Christ figure? Why not just follow Budda etc, alone? Think this an important question to include here. Basically to remind ourself that God and Christ work as a pair again and to distribute these wisdoms contained within all religions and whichever name gives meaning to you and can apply at a very individual level. Your views perhaps only halve the full story?? Ok will shut up now from Earthy me.. and all my blooming (good and negative implications here) further questionings!

That’s the problem in using words, implications and meanings can be misunderstood and altered right down to the abusing realm, from what the individual is actually implying or saying, even up to God’s words. Depends where your coming from in the first place…l suppose. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 6:19 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Sorry me again Andrew, Just read your next message and agree to all of it this time. Our Spirits are eternal, they live forever,…either in Heaven or Hell……. Also believe we do actually make our own Hell here on Earth but this too can be transformed into our own Heaven aswell, via our own being. Well you can guess what l’m implying here can’t you, it’s the K link yet again. LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 8:47 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
AKH: Lee: You have to understand that Christianity evolved out of ancient 2nd Temple Judaism, and though it reinterpreted a lot in view of Jesus’ bodily resurrection, it retained that Judaism’s basic assumptions about the nature of YHWH (God), his creation, reality and truth.Akh: I just had a realization, this is fine and good, you say this a lot as if trying to convince yourself. Ummm…But as Jesus spoke against the leaders of this establishment, as they had the keys they had the knowledge but did not use it themselves and did not allow others to do so….what then? What were they holding back that bothered him so? And since he was against them would you not have to remove him? Just thoughts that popped into my head. I won’t even get into the he was a Nazarene and THEY had a different outlook. Also in 2nd temple and prior the messiah was to just be a man…..what do we do there? Either you put him completely in or you remove him. It’s not like God same yesterday today and forever, was keeping this secret from his people Not like Surprise! How ya doing everybody? Oh don’t look at me in that strange way, IT’S ME! GOD!

LEE: That’s a valid question.

Traditional Jewish belief held that YHWH had covenanted with Abraham that YHWH would, through Abaraham’s offspring, the Jews and national Israel, redeem the world. Israel interpreted this to mean that these blessings would only come about through Israel as a specific nation of people, thus the exile through them for a loop, as did the later Greek and Roman occupations of Palestine. Thus, Jews in Jesus’ day were looking for the Messiah, who they mistakenly thought would raise an army, march on Cesararea, drive out the Romans, and reestablish the Davidic mnonarchy in Jerusalem. Thus, Israel would be restored, and God’s purposes would be fulfilled when the Gentiles became Jews. Then one day in the distant or not so distant future, YHWH would recreate the whole world and all the faithful would be physically resurrected as one people, no longer Jews or Gentiles.

Jesus had no problems with the underlying beliefs of the Jews regarding the nature of God, creation, the human condition, and bodily resurrection. His problem was the Jewish insistance that the Jews as the chosen people, were morally superior to everyone else, and the widespread belief that the Messiah would raise an army to make war on Rome.

Christianity teaches that Isreal, being comprised of fallen human beings, was incapable of living up to YHWH’s covenant requirements. But YHWH had promised to redeem the world through Israel. What was God going to do? Enter Jesus. God incarnated himself as Yeshua of Nazareth, so that Jesus took Israel’s place, stood in for them. What Israel could not accomplish Messiah Yeshua did, via his death, burial and resurrection.

Christianity believes that there were/are clues, actually prophecies, in the Hebrew OT that Messiah would suffer, die, and be resurrected. Yet nobody in ancient Israel ever believed that Messiah would be YHWH incarnate, less still that he would die and be resurrected. Suffer, posiibly; many Jews were expecting that, but die? No way! And God incarnate? Out of the question! Which is one argument that the first Christians didn’t simply invent Jesus’ divinity or the resurrection, because these beliefs weren’t on anyone’s radar in ancient 2nd Temple Judaism.

Basically, both ancient Judaism AND aqncient Christianity taught that YHWH was going to redeem the world and all his faithul followers in it, only in Judaism, this belief came to be a peripheral belief to the main belief that YHWH through Messiah would vindicate and restore national Israel. The best way to demonstrate that one was a saved member in good standing of God’s Covenant People according to the Pharisees, was to be ritually pure, by separating oneself from anyone or anything unclean (esp. tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, Greeks and Romans, etc.), and obeying Torah to the best of one’s ability. Thus, the spiritual arrogance and eltism of many Jews (not all!), esp. Pharisees, was what Jesus had a problem with.

Now the Gnostics totally disagreed with the Judaeo-Christian world view that creation was created by the one true god YHWH and that it was good, but corrupted by sin, and that YHWH wanted to save it. Most Gnostics believed the universe was a cosmic mistake which never should’ve happened. Thus, matter and the material world were bad. The Gnostic Jesus didn’t want to save the world or the people in it-he wanted to teach a select few people with the divine spark in them how to escape the world and physical existence. For example, my friend, NT scholar Bobby Valentine explains the underlying view of the Gospel of Judas: I explained that Jesus (in Judas) teaches that this world, including you and I, are cosmic screw ups. The created universe is the result of a fool god named Saklas messing up the spiritual realm and here we are! Only those with that special spark of ‘gnosis’ have any hope of returning to the other world. The entire point of life is to DIE, to flee the body and [the] physical. We are trying to flee our created existence . . . at least if you have that special gift. The easiest solution to the conundrum of life[,] Jesus tells Judas[,] is to help him die.

Does any of THAT sound like good news (which is what the word gospel means), he then asks? Nope! So Jesus, being Jewish, didn’t disagree with the basic beliefs of Jews that creation was good, you die once, then, if you’re faithful, one day YHWH will bodily resurrect you to live in his recreated world.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 9:50 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
LAURA STANTON: Hiya Lee,About the animal sacrifies. Is this not the same as many other religions and pagan rituals in the past and present day? How does this fit in with the differerent forms of Christianity today?

LEE: Hi again! In paganism, the gods (who were not immortal and did not create the universe) were fickle. You basically had to bribe them with sacrifices to get them to do what you wanted, and even that was iffy. But woe to any mortal who sunbbed them! (So many pious pagans thought).

In paganism, there was all this pre-matter which the old gods fasioned into the universe. Further, the pagan deities were basically superhumans, with superhuman egos and appetites for war, jealousy, anger, sex, vanity, glory, etc. But by the first century AD, many educated Greeks and Romans had decided that this traditional view of the gods was simply ridiculous. If a god or gods even existed, they were TOTALLY unlike those silly pagan gods, who were simply fashioned in the image of humans.

Christianity, otoh, taught/teaches that YHWH (God) exists outside of the universe that he created ex nihilo (out of nothing). There was nothing until God created it.

The sacrifices in paganism were basically to keep the gods happy, so that they would smile on a person, family, or nation.

The sacrifices in ancient Judaism were to deal with the sins of the people. In Judiasm and Christianity, people were originally created without sin. Evil didn’t exist, nor did death or disease. The willful disobedience of the first people changed all that. From that moment on, all human beings were born infected by sin. In Judaism, God’s sacred Shekinah presence literally dwelt inside the sanctuary of the Tabernacle and later the Temple. YHWH (God) was holy, righteous, just and merciful by his very nature. However God was so holy and holy and righteous that we humans couldn’t stand in his presence infected by sin. Enter the animal sacrifices. Sin can only be forgiven via a blood sacrifice. Thus the Jewish priests offered ritual sacrifices for the Jews in order to purify them so they could stand in YHWH’s prsence, be in comunion and fellowship with them. However, according to Christianity, these sacrifices, as part of the Mosaic Law, were only designed to be temporary, since the blood of bulls and goats was not pure enough or powerful enough to conclusively deal with sin. Thus, according to Christianity, the Jewish sacrifices prefigured and looked forward to, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

This is one way the Jewish-Christian God, unlike the fake pagan gods, has always been active in human history.

LAURA: Nothing stays the same either. We always flows forward as does the world…unless we as humans become stuck in negative patternings and behaviours which are also rooted in our subconscious. Know this one very well myself… before you ask.The main difference l can spot is perhaps that you believe in the strength and power of the physical body, whereas l believe in the power and strength coming from the spiritual world, but also through ourself, thanks to Jesus/Christ sacrifice. Am l right in my thinking here?

LEE: I believe, as Judaism and Christianity both affirm, that human beings are composite creations of body/mind/spirit, created by God to live in a physical universe. If you remove any one of those from the equation, you no longer have a complete human being. In authentic Judaism and Christianity, God beliberately created the material world on purpose, not as a peripheral side detail. He had a plan that involved humans being faithful stewards of his earth.

If only the soul is ultimately important, why do people (even most reincarnationists and Gnostics), fear death and attempt to stave it off as long as humanly possible? If the ancient Gnostic view is correct, death is our ticket out. Thus it should be longed for and embraced.

LAURA: Plus Jesus dying in an act of sacrifice for us l agree to. But, you knew l would have one…he died to allow us the opportunity for further spiritual development is my belief, not just the physical rebirthing. His body also actually merged with the Earth itself apparently, well his dust. This ultimate mergance, with the importance of his sacrifice for the actual Earth itself AND with Christ’s spiritual influence within us… and having eons to exist in this manner, for as long as it takes… l find amazing. The highest type of Spiritual influence imaginable in fact…. but yet still way beyond our present imagination or understanding. Well just my view.

LEE: The difference is in the nature of the sacrifice. Christianity’s central belief is that Jesus had to die so that sin and death could be abolished. But it also insists that Jesus didn’t stay dead-but was bodily resurrected three days after he was buried. His bodily resurrection was proof that he was God’s anointed, the true Messiah, and hius resurrection conquered physical death, so that, one day, all of God’s faithful will be bodily resurrected just like Jesus was. One day the physically resurrected human (God in a human body) Jesus, will return to the physically recreated earth to live with humanity. To me this is a WAAY better scenario than one in which God is simply our teacher, or example. The Christian God loved humans and their world so much that he LITERALLY DIED in order to save us. ALL of us, not just our immortal souls. We, as fallen humans, were incapable of any spiritual development until we were reconciled to him, which his death did.

LAURA: Therefore Christ’s actually dying contains so much more to offer humanity as a whole, rather than any physical resurrection could do. This could be viewed as fixating on an already known plane alone and could be seen as a safe place to go. Christ has already proved his total commitment towards humanity. Therefore his death was so not for nothing. This information may be way too far out there for most people, l do realise that. This option makes more sense to me, that’s all. ps. Just realised not managed to agree to disagree as in my earlier response to you.. so hopefully this message can be seen as just offering another perspective on it all. We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. LS

LEE: Personally, I find the belief of reincarnation impossible to accept. Because in Christianity, its totally unncessary, since who I am as a person is a combination of my soul, my mind, and the physical body I was born in (the first time). Again, the idea that our psyche, or soul is the real us, is a Platonic idea Jesus and the earliest Christians rejected. Certainly the Gnostic view that creation was a cosmic tragedy and that the few people spiritually mature enough to do so should escape the world, they rejected. Maybe you could explain what you believe about god/God? Is God a personal creator god? Did he/she/it create the universe? If so, why? Why is there evil in the world, or is evil only a relative term? Is your God a personal god who listens and answers prayer in any kind of way? What makes us human? Why are human beings here? Why is the earth here? Does God have a plan, and if so, what is it?

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 1:48 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Lee: Most Gnostics believed the universe was a cosmic mistake which never should’ve happened.

Akh: I would say many, and Jewish gnostics did not believe this. Like Ive always Said, the gentiles flipped it all about, made it dualist ruined it just like they did Christianity . The Demiurge was not evil Demiurge was linked with the spark as the divine root in you.

Lee: For example, my friend, NT scholar Bobby Valentine explains the underlying view of the Gospel of Judas:

Akh: And? Interesting book but I don’t hold to the Gospel of Judas. The entire point of life is to DIE, to flee the body and [the] physical.

Is that how NT scholars read that? Shame. That is not the point, in that book. I can see how it would appear that way by fellows who already hate life and are looking forward to the next.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 2:11 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
AKH: Is that how NT scholars read that? Shame. That is not the point, in that book. I can see how it would appear that way by fellows who already hate life and are looking forward to the next.

LEE: Which statement would be relevant if the Christian fellows who translate/interpert texts like Judas hated life, but they don’t. For example, Bobby Valentine believes in living this life to the fullest, as well as in a physical resurrection on a physical earth later on. How is that hating life? And we’ve had this argument before. The interpreters are interpreting these ancient Gnostic texts the way the ancient Gnostics who wrote them interpreted them-NOT the way modern neo-Gnostics RE-interpret them. No, not all Gnostic sects were not identical, but they all pretty much thought that physical existence was something to be escaped if possible. Hence those few souls enlightened enough to recognize their spark of divinity attempted to escape the prison of bodily existence. This is how the Gnostics themselves interpreted their own texts-they were radical dualists. As for the origins of Gnosticism, maybe its Jewish, maybe it’s not. The verdict is still out. Convincing arguments have been made for both views. Regardless, Gnosticism in general, as it evolved, certainly by the 2nd century, when the Gnostic gospels began to be written, was usually spiritually anti-Semitic. For example, Marcion threw out all of the Bible except the NT gospel of Luke and Paul’s letters, carefully edited of any Jewish theological content.

As scholar NT Wright says in his book on the Gospel of Judas:Central to the Gnostic system, which has many bewildering varieties and many internal contradictions, is the belief that the present world of space, time, and matter is essentially evil, the creation of a secondary deity, and that salvation will consist of escaping from it into a different sphere altogether both here and hereafter. Gnosticism teaches that some humans at least have within them a divine spark which needs to be uncovered or revealed, giving its initiates a secret knowledge, which in Greek is gnosis, hence Gnosticism. This enables the initiate to effect his escape (it’s normally a he) into a spiritual world. You just can’t spin ancient Gnosticism to make it more palatable or politically correct. It wasn’t mythopoeic to the Gnostics. Some Gnostic sects thought sex was taboo, others thought that since the body was ultimately illusory, it didn’t matter what you did with it. But as Fredericka Matthews-Green correctly observes, A well-meaning post-modernist who murmured `You’re both right’ would be reviled for not grasping what’s at stake.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 2:13 PM PDT

Jeffrey J. Quickle says:
The bible tells us? That book is a storybook, written by storytellers and full of stories! People need to wake up! For intance, those who love it, believe in it and feel that it is a holy book, will tell you, that it was inspired by God. OK, if you say so, but…..where in the bible does it say, that God and Jesus will never speak to us again? Wherre does it say in there, that we need to build buildings and go there on Sundays and Worship someone? This is all very funny, but sadly, we all have believed whatever our parents have told us as children and their parents told them and so on for hundreds of years. How many people who believe wholeheartedly in the bible know, that it was Roman politicians and tax collecters, who were the earliest church hierarchy, who had thier thumbs on the people of that time and wanted to make sure and keep it that way? How many actually know this or have reserached this? Not many! Jesus still speaks to us this day and time and he has answered all these important questions many times and cleared this whole mess up. He has said that they did not get much right at all in that book. There is no mention of his marriage, his sex before marriage with Mary Mag, and no mention of their son Benjamin, who was born before the crucifiction. She was pregnant during the crucifiction with daughter Sarah. They lived that life for 700 years! Where does the bible talk about this? They lived throughout Europe, mostly in France, but he loved to visit and stay in Tibet and India, among other places. He even lived in Britain and studied with the Druids. You can go and speak to him anytime you want in Tacoma Washington. He speaks through Judith Coates and you can read his words, which cannot be mistranslated or minipulated, at oakbridge.org. Just go there and click on Newsletters! They have monthly question and answer sessions and when you read these transcripts, there will be no question in your mind, that this is our beloved Jeshua ben Joseph, this is his real name and Jesus is just the Greek translation. When he speaks and answers questions through Judith, he shows that he knows everything about YOU and everyone else, your whole life and also your hundreds of other lives as well. This nonsense that we only have one time through this physical plane is absurd! Ever hear of Eternal Life? Eternal Life means, that our mind and our consciousness seperates from our bodies when we die and we can then perceive the other dimensions or realms, which there are many. All people who die can also come back just as Jesus did, but most do not, because they tend to want to explore other things and they quickly learn, that all those they thought they left behind, are also in the other dimensions as well, because there is much more to us, than we know! We have all heard about Near Death experiences, because these are people who decided to come back and continue in the current life for some reason, not finished with business it seems. In the Conversations with God books, God says that the number one problem in this world is beliefs! How true it is, because just look at discussions like this one! People will go to their grave fighting to protect or defend their opinions and beliefs! Many will defend their beliefs to the death, even though their beliefs are based on nothing more than what their parents or their church told them to believe. How sad is that? Many people growing up in other areas of this planet think that Americans are terrible, terrible people. Why? Because this is what their elders told them at a young age, that is why.

For the best book you can ever possibly purchase and I have no ties to this at all, go to ShantiChristo.com and order The Way of Mastery. Jeshua gave us this incredible book through Marc Hammer over several years. This book will blow your mind and you will have tears of Joy streaming down your face for sure, trust me! I feel sorry for all those who miss out on this book! So, back to the bible worshippers. God and Jesus stopped talking to us and communicating with us after the bible huh? I saw a preacher talking as if he speaks to Jesus and God regularly and knows all about them and he said the bible is all we get, nothing else is from them. Cracks me up! Listen up here! When you ask or seek, you shall be given, or shown the way! And in this day and time, we have evolved to the point, that many people are ASKing! many people are asking and so, we have been given ANSWERS! There are great books out there, that have more info in one page then the whole bible does!

Peace,Jeff

http://powerfulintent.ning.com/profile/jeff



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 2:16 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 25, 2009 2:19 PM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Akh: Carry your cross instead of watching Christ die on his. IFF: Well said. In that one sentence you encapsulated everything I’ve been trying to express about personal sacrifice vs. vicarious sacrifice.

LEE: Christianity doesn’t see this as either/or but both/and. BECAUSE Christ died on his cross I’m able to carry mine. Christ didn’t leave us in the lurch, to struggle and muddle through existence as best we can on our own power and merit, just hoping it will all make some kind of sense after we die (or die and are reincarnated a thousand times). His ONE death and physical resurrection makes immortality a reality for me. What modern science strives to to find a way to overcome-physical death-Jesus has already achieved for us.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 2:25 PM PDT

John Pritting says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Sept. 12, 2009 12:14 PM PDT]
Posted on
July 25, 2009 2:31 PM PDT

Jeffrey J. Quickle says:
Mark my words her folks and remember this well! Jesus has said recently, that there are going to be several people dying in the near future, who are going to be reactivating the body! Just as he did! He said, and this is the one thing, or one of a few things that they got correct in the bible, that we can do all these things he did and more. What does the church teach about this?

People are going to be dropping dead, maybe for several minutes, maybe hours, and then spring up with a smile on their face as if nothing happened and shock the crap out of those in attendance and the families involved as well. All this discussion about who is right and what is wrong, is laughable! He still speaks to us and he does so through many channels! I dare any of you to visit Kryon.com. Kryon and the info given by him at kryon.com is the most life transforming info you could ever hope to come across, other than The Way of Mastery. At that site, there is a Question and Answer archive, which should keep you busy for hours. I dare any of you to go there and then come back here and try to tell me why this info is not important or cannot be trusted. We were given our Internal Guidance system, our gut instinct, women’s intuition for a reason. If you go with what feels good in your heart, then you cannot go wrong. One more thing, in the bible it says Ye are All Gods! Show me which church teaches about this statement and tell me what it is they are saying or interpreting this to mean. We are all creators creating our life experience, ever expanding, ever expressing, ever experiencing in this life and many more to come! We are God, Godding. God gets to experience our next grandest version of the greatest vision we hold about our sevles in every Holy instant. In each moment we are given a new choice to choose who we are going to be and what we are going to experience next. Can you possibly deny this? God is all there is, there is nothing else. This is why Jesus said, I and my father are one. He never meant that he alone is one with the father. We are All One. Get over it and start living as such. It is not us against them, me against you. this is why wars start, because we do not live as though we are all connected and One. Once we all wake up and realize this, the wars will stop and all poverty and hunger and everything else that we tearm or label as bad or wrong will disappear!

Jeff




In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 2:33 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
LEE: Christianity doesn’t see this as either/or but both/and. BECAUSE Christ died on his cross I’m able to carry mine.

Akh: Should be less concerned with what christianity says and more concerned with what Christ says. Clinging to one does not show you are doing the other. If the other was done I would not have pointed that out.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 25, 2009 10:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 25, 2009 10:33 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
LEE: Christianity doesn’t see this as either/or but both/and.

IFF: No. Modern Christianity proclaims that Christ’s blood sacrifice is the singular act that atones for all evil, not anything that we do. As such, Christianity has been transformed from a culture (or spiritual practice) of self-sacrifice to a cult of vicarious salvation. It has become a religion of worldly self-improvement, righteous cultism, and eternal ego-glorification. But the way of Jesus is the way of all great masters: the way of the sacrifice and transcendence of egoic self in the Divine.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 4:36 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 26, 2009 4:47 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Jeff J.Quickle,

The book you mentioned The Way of the Master, Mark Hammer. Sounds like a wonderful book, and l will be buying myself a copy, so that l can perhaps link it into what l already believe…hopefully! Everyone, including myself in this discussion, are getting very distracted by various historical details and our own personal reasoning and rational contained within all the various variations in our present belief systems. l’d have to agree to that. All percieving a lack occurring in others, basically a, l know better and the l’m right and your wrong type of senarios…… which is never a good thing! Luciferic, or whatever name suits or complies within our own understanding. These influences are prefectly obvious… and are abounding and rebounding in never-ending circles of confusion. Nearly in every response here, unless we happen to give a plesant response, which has not happened that often, and only if we see a similar belief systems to our own. Splitting into teams! In no doubt that this applys to all the other Christian discussions, Spiritual discussions etc.etc.etc….. basically in every kind of discussion you care to think about! LS



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 5:09 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello John Pritting,

Thankyou for the Father Gudino quote from your book. Will have to buy this one aswell now as it sounds just up by street!!Am going to stop commenting here in this discussion, as feel it has run it’s course for me, and think l’ve commented enough..which takes me straight back to your Father Gudino’s reply to Satan again quite nicely… especially that last line,and any person who has the spirit, knows the truth about God’s word. This is yet again open to our interpretation! But hopefully l’ve managed to interpret my own questioning and beliefs correctly within this aim. Here’s hoping! Thanks again… and LOL to you John!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 5:15 AM PDT

John Pritting says:
[Deleted by Amazon on Sept. 12, 2009 12:14 PM PDT]
In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 5:29 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Dear Alfaara,

Am just checking through the last few messages l’ve not managed to read yet and came across your’s. You are sooo kind! Am really going to miss talking to you and Hoover, IFF etc,etc. I’m afraid not been able to contact Hoover as yet by the way, but hopefully will be able to track down his other discussions. Maybe we should start up our own group discussion on Amazon.. as we all appear to believe along the same lines???

You are the person who has touched my heart the most though.. please keep in touch, l will miss you my friend. My personal e-mail address is laurastanton@… and will look forward to talking with you again. LOL x



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 5:43 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya nearly done here Alfaara, honest! It is more a Battle for our souls. Oh yes… of course! Brillant comment you’ve made here! and there’s that old saying about.. keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer still. LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 7:00 AM PDT

Doctor says:
I see The oldest lie. is still a seducer.`Dying, ye do not die, Genesis 3 1And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?’ 2And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat, 3and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.’ 4And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die, 5for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it — your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.’



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 9:12 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 26, 2009 9:17 AM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
True Reality is God’s Presence, and evil principalities presence all around you, and there is a constant battle going on. The evil principalities (satan, demonic, devils, spirit guides) cause all sorts of mental and emotional and physical disorders and torment, and they deceive people like you. Come out of the Trance, come into the Light IN Christ. Psychology is just man’s corrupted attempt to fix problems they can’t fix themselves. They Need God, JESUS, and to accept His rule and reign over their lives, and His healing power and presence. Its all about whose Kingdom you want to build, and live in, for eternity. Your choice. Stop following man,… seek God and live, He will reveal all things you need to know to you.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 26, 2009 9:22 AM PDT

Andrew Netzke says:
Just remember to TEST the Spirits, … there are many voices, and many false versions of God and, Jesus, Spirit. We have to seek after, follow, the True Jesus of the Scriptures, Prophet, Priest, and King, whom all power and authority in heaven and earth has been given to. IN WHOM the Father, and the Holy Spirit dwell. (the fullness of the deity.) He is not our human version of Love, and HE is not just Law. HE can be found if we sek HIM wholeheartedly with single heartfocus as His first disciples did.



Posted on
July 26, 2009 9:27 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Its my experience that an obsession with demons and devils is characteristic of people who are mentally ill.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 27, 2009 1:04 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 27, 2009 2:26 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hello Akhenaten, Alfaara, Bryan + IFF,

Sorry was just reading through everyone’s responses and l’d missed plenty by the way!Anyway Akenaten – loved your description of mental disorders..especially as l’ve suffered from depression on various occassions in the past. Could see me in some of them very clearly. Wonderfully described!My reflexology experience has drawn me to this slightly different conclusion perhaps. That mental illnesses are conditions that we place on ourself, usually from a place of not understanding our own self punnishment issues, which usually arise form an event in our past which has been festering away in our unconscious mind. This then draws negative energy into our life events and expereinces and negative self beliefs are then reinforced. Very difficult to escape these types of cycles, as they are based in our subconscious mind. By drawing towards us and believing these initial wrong conclusion or thought that we’ve jumped to..we then continue to feed and build on it in a negative energy magnet manner.. for how we felt about ourself and that there is something is lacking or wrong with us. The I’m not good enough type of senarios.

Alfaara, also just saw your response in apparently regretting not having had spiritual realm communications. Maybe l picked this up wrongly? Anyway this is for you and for anyone else who hasn’t expereinced these type of experiences.

Maybe you don’t require this type of assistance within this lifetime! This is actually a wonderful thing…and not a lack at all. Maybe you are presently so adept in your current thinking, in a true spiritual sense already. So basically it’s a great sign for you.. not too require these types of inputs.

Was thinking about mine and how they have altered over time..becoming less buzzy/intense in affect.

Also had a converstion with my dad..was worrying about something and basically he said – that l could work out the answer for my self now. Have not had another conversation with him following this last conversation, which was about 6 months ago. However can feel his and others kind of further away presence when l happen to be thinking of someone deceased in a loving manner or struggling with something in m life. Like they are still there but only watching from a distance now, and have found that l can indeed answer most of my spiritual questions relating to me by myself or with comunications with other people. Bryan, just wanting to say thankyou for all your wonderful poetry quotes! A quick way of getting to the true meaning of things. My son used to watch The Never Ending Story video often. Must have seen it at least 50 times myself..and always inspires me! There’s also a part two of it..of course! Plus your conscious/subconscious response ages ago that l missed. Good old Steiner also mentions this but in relation to reincarnating in a male then female recurring theme. Apparently as a female spiritual awareness is more easily formed from their emotional side as in intuition etc. and males more likely to approach spirituality from the intellect or logical side of the brain. This is why we then normally fluctuate form being male /female and to get a building up affect, coming from each dominant side of the brain senario. Am sure others write about similar beliefs also.

Have a brilliant reflexology book about related information. First half of book describes how you can notice which side of your brain is more dominant and you can access the other side by some very simple techniques. You might find it interesting, called Right, Left Brain Reflexology, by Madeleine Turgeon, (1988), Healing Arts Press. Think l got it of Amazon books.

Plus l too am amazed by what l believe sometimes!

IFF, yes your responses have always amazed me! LOL to you all, and everone else reading of course!



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 10:32 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
AKH: Should be less concerned with what christianity says and more concerned with what Christ says. Clinging to one does not show you are doing the other. If the other was done I would not have pointed that out.

LEE:Jesus, in Matthew 10:37-38:Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Matthew 16:24:If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mark 8:34:Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.’I Peter 2:20-21:But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
I Peter 3:17:It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 10:39 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 29, 2009 10:40 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: No. Modern Christianity proclaims that Christ’s blood sacrifice is the singular act that atones for all evil, not anything that we do. As such, Christianity has been transformed from a culture (or spiritual practice) of self-sacrifice to a cult of vicarious salvation. It has become a religion of worldly self-improvement, righteous cultism, and eternal ego-glorification. But the way of Jesus is the way of all great masters: the way of the sacrifice and transcendence of egoic self in the Divine.

LEE: IFF, this isn’t modern Christianity’s problem. This teaching can be traced back to Jesus himself. Authentic Christianity has always coupled Christ’s sacrifice with our own self-sacrifice. See my above to Akhenaten for examples of Jesus’ assertion that anyone who wants to follow him must take up their own cross, just as he took up his.John 3:15:Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.John 12:32:’But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.’ He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 10:41 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

Exactly. You must take up your own cross, as Jesus said. What Christianity proclaims, however, is that you merely need to witness or believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, and somehow you will magically receive the benefits of that sacrifice. That is a false teaching.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 2:41 PM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Can’t resist a comment, last one as important?

The Lord of the Dance… think about the words.. messages contained within it, for coupled or even tripled meanings in relation to karma…Dance, dance where ever you may be…(or where ever in the world/where ever in your soul development… doesn’t matter!) Therefore life is not a battle or a game …just a dance! Perhaps dancing with words allows access to further understanding? Plus dancing normally experienced as a happy event? The Lords Prayer also required of course, thanks for pointing that out earlier Alfaara, l’d missed it. Your idea is how l managed to reach my idea…of course! LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 3:42 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
Andrew, you don’t know what you’re saying and you don’t know who you’re talking to. People like me? As in? Type? Personality? Please tell me what I am Andrew.

Andy: Psychology is just man’s corrupted attempt to fix problems they can’t fix themselves.

AKH: LOL, even if, YOU brought up mental disorders sir. Not me, you posted a tad I posted more.

Andy: Its all about whose Kingdom you want to build

Akh: Build? Is this a Joke? You speak of true reality but are unaware The Kingdom is inside you and all around you – Yeshua.

Andy: The evil principalities (satan, demonic, devils, spirit guides)

Akh: And I follow man!?! You sure? That looks more like Paul than Yeshua.

Andy: Come out of the Trance, come into the Light IN Christ.

Akh: Ummm…Shed your indoctrinated mind, free God from the prison you put him in and Raise The Son of Man/The Logos/Be baptized in fire/reverse the waters, raise them to the firmament and rest in the ineffable.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 3:49 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
You must have misunderstand. Christ is not Christianity. Christ is alive, Christianity is Death. It will console, it will never transform you. Dead in your walk. Dead in life, cut off at the navel, from the tree of life. The same whitewashed tomb That Beautiful Man spoke against is what Christianity stands as. And is remains a house for the dead. So what was the point in all that really? Beautiful words, Truth there, but what? Are you that far Gone? If you have logos you cannot err (sin) CAN NOT! And you just did, in a most extraordinary fashion. This is not that difficult. Just takes eyes to see. But too much trust in your monkey mind, especially when these things aren’t of the mind.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 29, 2009 6:32 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
Shiva’s Dance

Although the Lord of the Dance is one of my teachers too it appears, LOL.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 1:34 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 30, 2009 1:38 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan,

The Shiva Dance as one of the many links available to us here..exactly! Creation and destruction, or purification and rebirthing and in the now, with our present body/mind/soul facilities which we all contain and represent as being human. Moving us then forward towards one of the ultimate Spiritual World aims – which can be reflected here on Earth, via and through us… and making God smile for sure!!! The Rainbow link connections, perhaps. LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 6:14 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
For Bryan and anyone else interested in how we are presently being influenced Angel-wise. There is a really good website l’ve just come across. http://www.emergingearthangels.com/2009/wings7.28.2009.html

You’ll need to read through all the 3 pages before it makes sense. I was a bit put off by something it said at the start. Thinking l must be one of then ones on the lower rungs..hopefully l’m not too far down the ladder..here’s hoping! This should make sense if you happen to read the information supplied on the website. (Otherwise l might appear just to be slightly crazy!) Relates back to my last message as well. LOL



In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 7:26 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
IFF: Lee,Exactly. You must take up your own cross, as Jesus said. What Christianity proclaims, however, is that you merely need to witness or believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, and somehow you will magically receive the benefits of that sacrifice. That is a false teaching.

LEE: Christianity didn’t/doesn’t say that on a whim, or because it had/has nothing better to say. It’s actually deeply rooted in ancient Jewish theology, which taught that the ONLY way to atone for sin was through blood sacrifice. However the blood of bulls and goats wasn’t adequate, thus requiring the sacrice of God incarnate as Yeshua of Nazareth.BECAUSE Jesus took up his cross believers have salvation and eventual immortality, and the created order will be restored. If there was ANY other way to redeem the world, Jesus’ death was nothing but a sick, cosmic joke played by a cruel god-on himself!If you are going to continue to argue this is false teaching, you’re going to have to do a much better job than you have so far. But you will never convince me because there’s simply no evidence to back you up. I’m sorry, there just isn’t.Reason and evidence aren’t bad words. Christianity doesn’t require a person to check their brains at the door, or to proceed upon blind faith alone, less still solely on emotion or feelings.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 7:38 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 30, 2009 7:43 AM PDT

Lee Freeman says:
AKH: You must have misunderstand. Christ is not Christianity. Christ is alive, Christianity is Death. It will console, it will never transform you. Dead in your walk. Dead in life, cut off at the navel, from the tree of life. The same whitewashed tomb That Beautiful Man spoke against is what Christianity stands as. And is remains a house for the dead. So what was the point in all that really? Beautiful words, Truth there, but what? Are you that far Gone? If you have logos you cannot err (sin) CAN NOT! And you just did, in a most extraordinary fashion. This is not that difficult. Just takes eyes to see. But too much trust in your monkey mind, especially when these things aren’t of the mind.

LEE: A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ.

No human mortal has logos. Logos as used by the gospel of John is YHWH’s reason personified, specifically the Word made manifest in the flesh as Jesus.Christianity teaches a REAL flesh-and-blood Jesus with skin on. Gnosticism taught an illusory Jesus who was pure spirit, so that his body was merely an illusion, or at best, temporary.Christianity proclaims the euanggelion of Jesus Christ, who loved the world enough to sacrifice himself in order to save it. Gnosticism taught a semi-divine spirit-guide Jesus who taught ONLY a select few enlightened people how to achieve gnosis and thereby escape the physical world. Gnosticism thus was elitist, whereas Christianity was egalitarian, teaching that all could be saved and that in Christ there is no longer male/female, slave/free, Jew/Gentile. All are equal in Christ.In Christianity, the physically resurrected Jesus draws people to HIMSELF. In ancient Gnosticism, the spirit-guide Jesus draws a select few enlightened people to his TEACHING.

In Gnosticism, it makes no difference whether the tomb was empty or not-because Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection were nothing but illusions. In Christianity it makes a BIG difference that the tomb is empty.

I’m sorry but you guys just have no idea what you’re talking about. Jesus didn’t say The truth is relative, but The truth shall make you free. You have to know what/who that truth is before it can make you free.Give me the REAL Jesus who died and was raised, and reigns, and makes demands of his disciples that they look outside themselves, that the greatest coimandments are love of God and love of neighbor, over this re-imaged Gnostic or Buddhist Jesus who tells everybody they’re basically nifty people, and all they need to do is keep gazing inward, and that the greatest commandment is to be true to themselves.

Pax.Lee.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 11:01 AM PDT

IFeelFree says:
Lee,

The popular myth of Jesus is an idol of mass religion. It was created by the Christian Church when it moved to legitimize itself in the eyes of the secular State of Rome. That idol is worshiped by popular belief, and many have been deluded and oppressed by the cult of that idol. People worship Jesus as an exclusive human embodiment of God because they are unwilling or unable to accept the kind of responsibility for themselves that Jesus accepted for himself.

Jesus is popularly believed to be God, the creator of the universe, and his death is glorified as a necessary cosmic event that somehow makes it unnecessary for any believer to suffer permanent mortal death. This may have made some kind of imaginative, street-level sense in the days of the Roman Empire, but it is nothing more than benighted silliness in the modern age. In any case, none of this idolatry was the teaching or the intention of Jesus or any of the other great spiritual adepts of the world. All of the mythological idolization of Jesus was the creation of the popular cultism of the early Christian Church. The time has come for us to renounce this nonsense, even if the Christian Church is unwilling to renounce its obnoxious absolutist claim on all of humanity. Jesus did not teach the worship of himself as an idol of God or a substitute for the responsibility of each person for his own religious and spiritual sacrifice. This myth has nothing to do with true religion or our spiritual responsibility, and it is time we stopped glorifying the martyrdom of Jesus. The idea that the murder of Jesus was the literal and final sacrifice of God is a perversion of the truth. The true sacrifice of Jesus occurred while he was still alive. That sacrifice was of an esoteric spiritual nature, and it is of no inherent value to anyone else, unless that person duplicates that same sacrifice in his own life. Therefore, we should awaken to a true understanding of Jesus and his teaching. Then perhaps some benefit will come to us from that ancient outrage performed in Jerusalem.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 12:15 PM PDT

Akhenaten says:
LEE: Christianity teaches a REAL flesh-and-blood Jesus with skin on. Gnosticism taught an illusory Jesus who was pure spirit, so that his body was merely an illusion, or at best, temporary.

Akh: That’s BS. A group did.

LEE: Christianity proclaims the euanggelion of Jesus Christ, who loved the world enough to sacrifice himself in order to save it. Gnosticism taught a semi-divine spirit-guide Jesus who taught ONLY a select few enlightened people how to achieve gnosis and thereby escape the physical world. Gnosticism thus was elitist, whereas Christianity was egalitarian, teaching that all could be saved and that in Christ there is no longer male/female, slave/free, Jew/Gentile. All are equal in Christ.

Akh: THat’s Bs as well. The all welcoming sword of the church right?

LEE: In Christianity, the physically resurrected Jesus draws people to HIMSELF. In ancient Gnosticism, the spirit-guide Jesus draws a select few enlightened people to his TEACHING.

Akh: Okay half of that is true. You do have an idiotic obsession with rising in the flesh. Who picks up the flesh after transfiguration? This is an absurd idea. NO! To the second. A select few will WANT to seek. See most people as you guys shows are deluded and lazy. You are more than welcome to be such. Sit back while another seeks to raise himself. All fine and dandy, sick pagan vicarious blood drinkers are welcome. But, you lie if you say it looks anything like Judaism.

Lee: In Gnosticism, it makes no difference whether the tomb was empty or not-because Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection were nothing but illusions. In Christianity it makes a BIG difference that the tomb is empty.

Akh: Lil’ more research lil less parroting would be helpful. All over are books the living Jesus said This is a reference to the resurrected Christ. LOL But as far as empty tombs….Mine is empty. So what? 1300 years before Yeshua was Neferkheperu-Re Waen-Re battles the priests of amun. claims to be the light, claims to be the son of the only god, and on and on.

Lee: Jesus didn’t say The truth is relative, but The truth shall make you free. You have to know what/who that truth is before it can make you free.

Akh: What? Yeah you have to know it. You don’t. I don’t know what how saying something shall set you free proves it’s obviously not relative though. You guys are stretching.

Lee: Give me the REAL Jesus who died and was raised, and reigns, and makes demands of his disciples that they look outside themselves

Akh: Problem. He never existed. Look outside yourself? Who in the hell says that? Where does Jesus say look outside? When does Jesus divide such?

Lee: over this re-imaged Gnostic or Buddhist Jesus who tells everybody they’re basically nifty people

Akh: This isn’t so much a problem. Nazarene Essenes were influenced by Buddhism. Well that’s what some scholars say.

Lee: YOu can have the man from nazareth. A city that didn’t exist. You can have the lie. And you can lie with the dead. But your whole broad stroking definition of gnostic fails to work. Its a lie. I’m sure you know it. Before anyone ever spoke of gnostic you brought them up, you bring them up all the time for some reason. YOu have quite the uneducated obsession Lee. The literal Jesus. Who also God? THat oh so real Jesus? Yeah, you and your pagan brothers can have that fraud. Keep the Name too. We’ll use the name bestowed on him by the father….well….we won’t use it of course.




In reply to an earlier post on
July 30, 2009 12:43 PM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
>You’ll need to read through all the 3 pages before it makes sense.

I’m not even sure then, LOL.



Posted on
July 30, 2009 8:02 PM PDT

IFeelFree says:
.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 31, 2009 12:24 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on July 31, 2009 12:26 AM PDT

Laura Stanton says:
Hiya Bryan,

Oh well, guess it just fit’s in with my present, personal belief’s and dreams. LOL.



In reply to an earlier post on
July 31, 2009 1:14 AM PDT

Bryan Borich says:
A message for myself and someone else I was talking to at one point, in answer to a question;Waiting On The World To Change lyricsMe and all my friends We’re all misunderstood They say we stand for nothing and There’s no way we ever could Now we see everything that’s going wrong With the world and those who lead it We just feel like we don’t have the means To rise above and beat it So we keep waiting Waiting on the world to change We keep on waiting Waiting on the world